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For Questions Regarding WOFs/CERTs/NUMBER PLATEs

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So to the letter of the law it would require recert solely because the pedal box has been swapped. Even though the brake system hasn't been modified as the brake side of things is like for like, only difference is that one pedal box has a clutch pedal attached to oneside and one doesnt?

Seems abit odd, what's the difference in replacing a master cylinder?

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Do you mean changing the master cylinder size? Or just replacing a worn one for a new one? 

I think the intention is to prevent people swapping parts that there may be differences between manual and auto spec which might be a safety issue that doesnt get picked up by a wof inspection 

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Just can't see how one clutch pedal being installed automatically results in requiring a cert.

If you swap pedal boxes and the brake side of things are identical then you aren't really modifying the brake system.

Thus shouldn't require a cert for a gearbox swap.

I mean I think you should need a cert for gbox swap but according to the threshold the only issue is that the braking system IS modified by fitting a pedal box with a clutch.

Not having a go but its the whole interpretation thing

 

 

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That is correct. If however your clutch pedal resides on it's own independent pedal box and you don't touch the brake pedal box, you are fine. So long as the clutch pedal doesn't hit the wider auto brake pedal.

The issue is, people in the past have modified their factory brake pedals to fit around their newly installed clutch pedal, they did a shit job, their brake pedal broke and they no longer got stoppers. Hence blanket rule to make sure muppets haven't stuffed anything up. All it takes is one mounting point to be in a different location and someone going "meh, doesn't need it" and then eventually the frame fatigues and things go wrong.

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Let's say I have a vehicle which was originally manual but has been engine swapped and auto is stated on cert plate, then it gets changed back to manual. 

I go for a WOF and the man says no deal as its not certed for the manual, however if the braking system is not modified it doesn't need a cert. Then i would have to get a cert for something that doesn't need certified lol

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@Esky_addict Do you realise that @cletus answers all these questions for free to help out old schoolers? I’m sure he doesn’t need his time wasted with hypothetical questions. Also remember that he does not make the rules. 

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It would already be Certed and not match the cert plate. Simple eh

:P

 

My clutch pedal is still there, it's just unpinned and ziptied up under the dash lol

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6 hours ago, Esky_addict said:

Let's say I have a vehicle which was originally manual but has been engine swapped and auto is stated on cert plate, then it gets changed back to manual. 

I go for a WOF and the man says no deal as its not certed for the manual, however if the braking system is not modified it doesn't need a cert. Then i would have to get a cert for something that doesn't need certified lol

Yes you would, because you are changing your car from its certified state. The same applies to anything else on the car. Once certified, you can't change back to factory wheels either.

If you don't like the rules, don't modify your car.

 

 

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There's really no point in debating the rules as LVVTA can say "nah bowl" on whatever, regardless of your interpretation. It's not like they're gonna be like "oh gee you're right, if you read it that way then yes you can slide through, we'll allow it", they'll just amend the rules.

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Also think about it,

ol mate with diddles for fingers only puts half the amount of bolts in when putting a Gearbox in, -not ideal but probably not a big issue

yet half the bolts on a brake pedal or being a potato and forgetting to install the Clevis pin correctly / heating / cutting brake pedal may result in brakes failing in an emergency stop and that’s sort of important.

 

 

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Just now, Yowzer said:

There's really no point in debating the rules as LVVTA can say "nah bowl" on whatever, regardless of your interpretation. It's not like they're gonna be like "oh gee you're right, if you read it that way then yes you can slide through, we'll allow it", they'll just amend the rules.

Or worse and go well you fucked that opportunity, let’s go Aussie/Germany spec.

enjoy stock cars

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Haha don't get me wrong I think there should be requirement for a cert after a gearbox change.  

3 hours ago, Yowzer said:

Yes you would, because you are changing your car from its certified state. The same applies to anything else on the car. Once certified, you can't change back to factory wheels either.

If you don't like the rules, don't modify your car.

 

 

The way it was explained to me by a certifier was that after a cert that was essentially the new OE spec for the car, so any deviation requires recert, if the modifications don't meet the threshold then why would it require a recert?

Just now, Shakotom said:

Also think about it,

ol mate with diddles for fingers only puts half the amount of bolts in when putting a Gearbox in, -not ideal but probably not a big issue

yet half the bolts on a brake pedal or being a potato and forgetting to install the Clevis pin correctly / heating / cutting brake pedal may result in brakes failing in an emergency stop and that’s sort of important.

 

 

Those things would be modifying the braking system but swapping a pedal box is not. 

As I said before not having ago just a healthy discussion.

 

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can you trust some people to not cross thead with a zillion ugga dugga's a few bolts on critical components?

 

I mean tights tight right?

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11 hours ago, Esky_addict said:

Let's say I have a vehicle which was originally manual but has been engine swapped and auto is stated on cert plate, then it gets changed back to manual. 

I go for a WOF and the man says no deal as its not certed for the manual, however if the braking system is not modified it doesn't need a cert. Then i would have to get a cert for something that doesn't need certified lol

The other issue here is that with it being engine swapped, a another reasoning for the wof man saying no deal apart from not matching CERT plate is 99% of the time that manual conversion would probably not involve using all OE components to convert to manual. Wether that be a adapter plate to fit OEM gearbox, custom trans mount etc. 

Better case for argument here would be something like my s14, only certed for suspension mods but stock motor and auto gearbox. Manual swap would require CERT even if I used all OEM components And didn’t change the brake pedal because it no longer matches CERT plate, and the rule is it must match the cert plate.

However if I wanted to refit all my stock parts, get the cert plate removed, then manual swap using OEM parts and retain the auto brake pedal then GG I guess, but fuck that because you’ll probably fit the manual pedal so You wont stamp the brake pedal when youre trying to do clutch kicks.

 

-loophole would be non certed car converted to manual using 100% Oe non modified parts that still retains the OE auto brake pedal And the clutch pedal box/mount is not part of the brake pedal box / mount. 

-there are cars out there than manual and auto pedal boxes differ as they’re all in one (Early commodores etc) so swapping to that would be modifying a braking component. And you’d also find that pedals will probably touch/ be too close to use nicely etc.
WOF guys gonna probably refer you to certifier as that way liability is removed from him.
 

great discussion point etc, but legal answer is gonna be just get a cert, it ain’t that hard.

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Just now, Esky_addict said:

The way it was explained to me by a certifier was that after a cert that was essentially the new OE spec for the car, so any deviation requires recert, if the modifications don't meet the threshold then why would it require a recert?

Thresholds are different between unmodified cars and modified ones, in general. Cert allows you to go above and beyond what you can without one. However, once you go that way, the car needs to stay in that configuration. Just because cars are converted auto to manual, and not picked up by WOF inspectors as needing a cert, doesn't mean they don't need one. Joe Bloggs can potentially using any brake pedal and the odds of it being picked up at WOF time are slim. Zero testing will have been done on that part, to know it's actually suitable. Cert means everything has been checked over carefully and is compliant. Any change at that point has the potential to affect other areas.

Yeah I agree on the trans swap needing a cert, to using the current trendy term, too many diddle fingers out there doing the work.

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Just now, JoKer said:

can you trust some people to not cross thead with a zillion ugga dugga's a few bolts on critical components?

 

I mean tights tight right?

Just had a LandCruiser in like five minutes ago where the customer had fit their own ball joint. It was the wrong one and the taper was too small, and therefore not seating correctly. So no, you cannot trust anyone.

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Place needs more warrent inspectors like this most wouldn't pick that balljoint wasn't correct especially if it was muddy/2nd hand looking with everything else but still ping you for something like no water in washer. I do all my own work and like having someone check over my stuff to make sure it's safe as it's pretty easy to forget to tighten a bolt after you've had your whole car apart lol.

Just now, Yowzer said:

Just had a LandCruiser in like five minutes ago where the customer had fit their own ball joint. It was the wrong one and the taper was too small, and therefore not seating correctly. So no, you cannot trust anyone.

In my case I'm looking at buying a cruiser with cert for 1uz and auto but now manual back to manual.

The cert is meaningless as it requires a recert, I guess it should be easier for recert tho as only the gearbox mounts/pedal box will need inspected or does the whole conversion need rechecked. 

Kind of off topic but we were on a run in a mates 68 Impala a while back fresh full build and a upper a arm bolt fell out causing the whole top arm to depart at 60mph, so no cant trust anyone lol

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