Romans 2005 Toyota Echo

[kpr]

looks  like you need a few thousand more rpm judging by that graph

[Roman]

Nah I think the MAF is lying about the jump up at the end. Probably because the entire throttle diameter feeding everything is smaller than one of your intake runners!

The wideband and fuel map paint a more ordinary picture. 
But looks like peak torque at about 5000 which is not too bad of a starting point.

 

[Roman]

Alpha N grossness



Full throttle is bang on target but on the steep transition part of the slope it's tricky to get it right.

Might hook up a map sensor on the factory inlet manifold just to see how far from atmospheric pressure it is at full throttle.


 

[kpr]

i find this works good for alpha n.    this ones off my 20v turd.  need quite a bit of resolution at low throttle openings  but can space things out quite a bit in the higher openings. 

[Roman]

Ahh yeah its probably heading towards that sort of shape. Just using traditional fuel mode at the moment but I should be able to get a ballpark of injector size from that.

[Roman]

On 08/10/2020 at 19:40, kpr said:

i find this works good for alpha n.   

Ahhhh so I got enough info together to switch it over to modelled fuel, so the AFR target isnt built into the fuel map anymore. 

And it's starting to look a lot more similar. Except for that yours has top end power and mine eats shit right where it's supposed to get good haha.




On the factory ECU with OBD2 it would show the odd spike up to 16,000rpm or something like that. 
It's definitely much worse with this ECU, it never really caused issues before but problems now.
Somewhere around 2krpm at a very narrow window the car bucks and chokes and is awful then a couple 100rpm later it's dandy again from there until redline. 
Looking in the logs it's crank trigger errors and its thinking the rpm goes up to a zillion.
I turned up the filtering on the trigger but no improvement. 
I'll double check I've got the shield wire connected though, possibly dont and it goes past a lot of noisy stuff.
Looking on the internet there was a recall for crank trigger issues on these engines where they get internally contaminated with oil and need to be replaced. 
Looks like it's probably going to be a wanker of a job / maybe not.

Also started looking into options for replacing the devilishly choked up intake. 

I drew a thing: 



Printed a thing, but guess who drew the throttle flanges upside down so all the holes are wrong:



Then another attempt trying to keep the throttles as close together as possible as the port centers are closer than the standard throttle centers. It almost works but it's just maybe 2-3mm too tight even if the linkages were filed down as much as you can.



I've got silvertop and blacktop throttles here, part of me thinks that given the small dia ports the silvertops will be better. I might use the blacktop throttles on the other engine one day so I dont want to file down the linkages when I'll later on need them spread apart further than the factory spacing.
This all wasnt looking too great for fitment, thanks to the alternator. Until Matt told me that the supercharger kit for these engines tips the alternator further forward and uses an extension bracket and it's all super simple. Sounds easy enough so will have a look at that too. 
Will give this all a test fit over the weekend.

I've still got 2 months till drag day so I'm pretty confident that even if it just runs as it currently stands, it'll be a little more fun with the extra rpm. Hopefully a little quicker but not holding my breath just quite yet. But it would be nice to try out a less wheezy intake and maybe go pillage a spare exhaust and see if there's any easy gains. If the rear muffler has a flap in it, replacing the whole thing with one that doesnt would probably help a little during low-mid rpm perhaps.
 

[a.craw4d]

Stripping out the interior an option?

It'll make a bigger difference down the 1/4.

[Roman]

Yeah I'll probably take the back seats out but that's probably about it.
Definitely not going to chip off underseal and all that.
It's genuinely a nice car so I'm trying not to wreck it too much.

But anyway:



Apart from the throttle centers being a little to close together for the linkages to work, this is all fits up great in terms of clearance to everything. 
The dipstick can stay where it normally is, the radiator cap fitting needs to move a little but no big deal, and it clears the alternator easily without doing anything. 
The standard throttle cable will work, will just need to depin and repin the TPS but that's easy enough. 

Once I've got the throttle spacings sorted I'll get some nylon and try bang out a proper one!

[a.craw4d]

On the weight loss theme. A mate and I had a 4wd Subaru Leone wagon we thought we'd make into an off road buggy. We removed all panels and doors, chopped off the roof at the bottom of the windscreen height, chopped the back off at the rear most suspension mounting point and put the fuel tank where the back seat was. Added a single roll over bar and a bar across the tops of the chopped pillars. Now this isn't recommended for a tidy road going car but the performance increase was staggering. In the length of an industrial Dunedin block (maybe 100-150m max) we were cracking 130kph, it kicked the ass off my Mazda gtx at the time too.    Never did take it off roading though, someone drove past and offered good coin for it.

And that's my story.

 

[Roman]

Along those lines, this is one of the internet greats

https://nerocam.com/SCC_TAP.asp
 

[Roman]

Okay so some 1NZ  / 2NZ engine sharns. 

The 2NZ engine is the 1300cc variant. (as fitted)
10.5:1 compression, max torque @ 4000 max  hp @ 6000. 

The 1NZ is a long stroke version of this which bumps it to 1500cc.
Still 10.5:1 compression, max torque @ 4000 max hp @ 6000. 

So it gains power and torque but looks like the manifolds etc are the same which explains same rpms for max power and torque.
So it doesnt look like there would be any worthwhile easy bolt on bits from the bigger motor.

Howeverrrrrr 

The early Prius engine is a modified 1NZ engine that uses atkinson cycle and makes the worst power out of everything by far.
But what's interesting and maybe relevant is how it does it.
Atkinson cycle means it leaves the intake cams open for a lot of the way while the piston is still coming up so it pushes the air back into the intake manifold.
So it reduces pumping losses but then has high static compression which is win win for efficiency.
In order for this to work it needs a comparatively long duration intake cam (270 deg) 
It also means it has 13:1 pistons and an alloy intake manifold with what looks like shorter runners.

Fancy coated pistons from factory:



Alloy intake manifold to deal with air/fuel pumping back in and out of it:


So the intake manifold might be a decent swap for a normal 1NZ 
And some prius weirdos have put the normal 1NZ intake cam in, to make it 13:1 comp in a more normal sort of way which is pretty lush. 
It would probably go decently by retarding the intake cam a whole bunch so its normal cycle then advancing inlet at high rpm when overlap is useful for power.
It has forged steel rods but checking part numbers its the same as normal 1NZ. 
You can buy a whole prius engine for about 500 bucks.

Definitely not going to do that any time soon but once my new shed is sorted I might buy one and tuck it away for a rainy day.

[Roman]

On 09/10/2020 at 23:28, a.craw4d said:

Stripping out the interior an option?

It'll make a bigger difference down the 1/4.

Weighed it today. 
Without driver 865kg with full tank of gas and some junk in the car.

Only thing missing is spare tyre, which isnt there cos someone stole it.

Wonder how much the rear and passenger seats would account for.

[Alfashark]

1 hour ago, Roman said:

Wonder how much the rear and passenger seats would account for.

Bout 40-45kg?

My Golf is a fatty at 785kg, but that's because it's got a slushbox.

Whip the seats out and collect all the loose change and debris while you're at it.

[mjrstar]

Seems pretty light, my ek civic with not much interior, and a die cast aluminium engine block is 990kg. Although there is a few bits of rollcage materials I guess. 

[Roman]

Yeah its a case of every single part in this car is no heavier than it needs to be.

Like you'd expect to undo 14mm bolts but they are 12. Expect 12 and they're 10. And so on.
The waterpump pulley is held on with 3 10mm head (6mm) bolts. hah.

Then interior parts are only held in with a single bolt or just plastic clips.
Plastic intake manifold.
4-1 exhaust manifold thats about 200mm long.
13x5 steel wheels with 155 wide tyres.
stuff like that all adds up.

Pretty amazing it's got ABS and airbags, aircon, stuff like that and still able to be so light.

However this may all be part of why it only has around 64hp at the wheels haha!

[Truenotch]

Don't forget those lightweight rods! 

 

*These particular rods are not from Roman's 2NZ. AFAIK he hasn't stripped his engine down to fit bigboy rods yet. 

[Roman]

When you've got Bingo at 3, but Trackday at 5: 



The difference from this has been amazing!
Max torque has moved up another 1000rpm, and then it has 20hp ATW more at peak(66hp to 86hp)
It starts valve bouncing pretty bad, this might be what the sudden torque drop is at higher rpm. 



I thought I might have made a mistake with logging it in virtual dyno so I went back and a did a few more runs and they all looked the same. 
This has felt worth the effort.
Also interestingly the VVTI cam range that it likes now is a bit more typical to what I'd expect. 
So moving the cam around (about 20deg on midrange then tapers off to 5 up top) and it was even better again. 

I bet there's some good improvements too from de-choking the exhaust side too, because its absolutely tiny on that side just like the intake was.
I'm not that keen on spending $$$$ on getting an exhaust made up though so I'll have a think about this one.

Also, yes it makes a big bloody racket at full throttle now haha.

[ajg193]

Is that with a 3D printed intake manifold? If so, how does it cope with the heat?

[UTERUS]

Could you take a photo of the echo exhaust, go for a wander around zebra etc and find something close enough that you can hit with hammers to marmalade in there?

 

 

 

 

Lol Dave, vids plz.

[Yowzer]

I like to practice weldyweldy

Bring me metal and I make zorst