Romans 2005 Toyota Echo

[kpr]

1 hour ago, Dudley said:

Makes pretty good power with the speeduindo ecu

you mean this one

[ThePog]

Dredge for @Roman as I have a q..

I see someone has put a 1nz into an X1/9 and it fits really tidily, what sort of hp do you reckon one could make without going mad on the mods..?

 

[Sunbeam]

More than an X1/9

[ThePog]

Almost certainly, although mine makes sufficient power in its current form.

It is more about the gearbox as I kindof want something a bit more robust but it probably makes more sense to modernise the engine in the same change...

[xsspeed]

1 hp and 1rpm less than roman had

[Roman]

2 hours ago, ThePog said:

Dredge for @Roman as I have a q..

I see someone has put a 1nz into an X1/9 and it fits really tidily, what sort of hp do you reckon one could make without going mad on the mods..?

 

Hello Sir 

I think the most economical path to some extra hp is: 

-First you need to increase rpm, so you need a non factory ECU. Factory ECU limits you to 6400rpm, which sucks.

-Second, by far the biggest restriction in the factory engine is the intake manifold. It's easy to adapt some ITB to it, a few people have used 4AGE throttles or CBR900(?) throttles with good results.

-When you do this, it will be valve bouncing at around 7000-7200 rpm, in which case you need valve springs so it can rev out better. You can get valve springs on ebay from BC, or, the Thailand guys sell them same same for about half the price. Cant remember the name. 

-Next step would be bigger cams, this is where the motor will really wake up and you'll see 150 to 160hp at the wheels and power past 8000rpm.

-Then from here everything is only incremental gains, like replacing the exhaust. 

It's a shame that needing an ECU is pretty much the first step, as its probably the most expensive part. 

The echo went pretty good because it was ~800kg, I'm not sure what an X19 weighs but if it's closer to 1000kg I'd perhaps look at other options. 
But at 800ish sort of weight it was absolutely amazing fun. 

[ThePog]

7 minutes ago, Roman said:

Hello Sir 

I think the most economical path to some extra hp is: 

-First you need to increase rpm, so you need a non factory ECU. Factory ECU limits you to 6400rpm, which sucks.

-Second, by far the biggest restriction in the factory engine is the intake manifold. It's easy to adapt some ITB to it, a few people have used 4AGE throttles or CBR900(?) throttles with good results.

-When you do this, it will be valve bouncing at around 7000-7200 rpm, in which case you need valve springs so it can rev out better. You can get valve springs on ebay from BC, or, the Thailand guys sell them same same for about half the price. Cant remember the name. 

-Next step would be bigger cams, this is where the motor will really wake up and you'll see 150 to 160hp at the wheels and power past 8000rpm.

-Then from here everything is only incremental gains, like replacing the exhaust. 

It's a shame that needing an ECU is pretty much the first step, as its probably the most expensive part. 

The echo went pretty good because it was ~800kg, I'm not sure what an X19 weighs but if it's closer to 1000kg I'd perhaps look at other options. 
But at 800ish sort of weight it was absolutely amazing fun. 

Its about 900kg give or take, and currently probably putting out 130-140hp, enough for a pretty good time.

But that engine has a cast iron block so some potential savings there.

An exhaust would be easy as, same with valve springs, but as I am a luddite of the worst kind would bike carbs be a solution to both the intake and rev limit issues?

[ThePog]

The chap also said the c151 tranny would work, was that what you were running...?

[Roman]

There are two main versions of the gearbox. 

The C151/152/whatever which has a real horrible final drive to keep rpm low for economy reasons (think 2800rpm at 100kph) 

and then the C56 box, which has way better gear ratios and a 4.3 final drive. But it's harder to find as it only came in the Vitz RS.

The common/cheap LSD from the 4AGE gearbox will fit into the C56 box, but not the other versions. 

Bike carbs will help your fuel situation, but it runs coilpacks as well. So you might need to do a dodgy dizzy conversion or something too. 

Also you'll lose VVT which isnt huuuugggge problem but it makes it a lot nicer to drive and overall powerband.

By the time you've done all that, may as well just buy a link monsoon. 

(Says me, person who tight fistedly spends twice as much on half assed solutions regularly) 

[kpr]

hey its that 1nz guy 

[ThePog]

28 minutes ago, Roman said:

There are two main versions of the gearbox. 

The C151/152/whatever which has a real horrible final drive to keep rpm low for economy reasons (think 2800rpm at 100kph) 

and then the C56 box, which has way better gear ratios and a 4.3 final drive. But it's harder to find as it only came in the Vitz RS.

The common/cheap LSD from the 4AGE gearbox will fit into the C56 box, but not the other versions. 

Bike carbs will help your fuel situation, but it runs coilpacks as well. So you might need to do a dodgy dizzy conversion or something too. 

Also you'll lose VVT which isnt huuuugggge problem but it makes it a lot nicer to drive and overall powerband.

By the time you've done all that, may as well just buy a link monsoon. 

(Says me, person who tight fistedly spends twice as much on half assed solutions regularly) 

So something like this but crashed/dereg would be a good bet?

2004 Toyota Vitz RS https://www.trademe.co.nz/5617186228

 

[Roman]

yep, perfect. 
 

You have to make sure to get the 1500cc version to get the good gearbox, pays to confirm on the chassis plate it says C56. 

You might not believe it, but from the time I had my echo project, to now, there's hardly any left. 

There used to be 2 or 3 or 4 vitz RSs at each pickapart, and if I didnt go pull the gearbox out then they got crushed with the car. 

Now on day 1, gearbox and other parts like bumpers etc are gone. And there are close to none coming through anymore.
 

[ThePog]

I would kindof hope there is a standalone programmable ignition setup driven from an rpm sensor that could fire out vvti signals at certain revs. But thats probably too much to hope for.

[kpr]

Yeah unlikely.     vvti needs feed back and closed loop control.    

[tortron]

13 minutes ago, ThePog said:

I would kindof hope there is a standalone programmable ignition setup driven from an rpm sensor that could fire out vvti signals at certain revs. But thats probably too much to hope for.

Megajolt maybe, but i dont think they make them any more. but the come up. I have one and it has an output you can set for a certain rpm 

*it looks like they are still available online

[ThePog]

2 minutes ago, kpr said:

Yeah unlikely.     vvti needs feed back and closed loop control.    

Yea but does it need to?

If all you do is send it hard then just have it engage at whenever...

VETC YOOOOOOO!?!!!

[tortron]

oh here you go, they make the vvt controllers now too

https://www.trigger-wheels.com/store/contents/en-uk/p275.html

 

https://motorsport-electronics.co.uk/getting-power-with-fords-st170-variable-valve-timing/

[kpr]

21 minutes ago, ThePog said:

Yea but does it need to?

If all you do is send it hard then just have it engage at whenever...

VETC YOOOOOOO!?!!!

well you could go full ham and just  use it like  an   on/off vvt system.   mechanically limit the pulley so has about 25-30deg   travel.   then put 12v on the solenoid  to advance it fully in midrange then take power off in top end.     put a button on the steering wheel .. 

[ThePog]

24 minutes ago, kpr said:

well you could go full ham and just  use it like  an   on/off vvt system.   mechanically limit the pulley so has about 25-30deg   travel.   then put 12v on the solenoid  to advance it fully in midrange then take power off in top end.     put a button on the steering wheel .. 

I will label it NOS

[Bearded Baldy]

Nearly

Operable

System?