KPies 1974 Holden Belmont Discussion

[chris r]

The later model commodore electronic distributors fit in nicely put one into my tonner, only issue is the vac advance mechanism on mine isn't advancing so if your points dizzy is in good condition I'd leave it imo. And barries want way too much money for them 

All the old barries say headers and exhausts / electronic dizzy makes them quicker but the tonner did exactly the same 1/4 mile after headers /exhaust/electronic dizzy so it's probably just barry crap. 

Edit: if you change the timing gears may as well do the cam while you are in there...

https://www.aucklandcams.co.nz/camlist/holden-149-202/

 

[Lord Gruntfuttock]

Fibre timing gears is a weak point. Can replace them with alloy ones that give a slight blower-type whine.

Found this on back of Pics peanut butter jar label this morning. Not sure there was a 3 speed column change 308 option?

Lazy linkages is on point tho...

[nzstato]

^ Good point.  @azzurro I might have an alloy gear and a few other bits (maybe a rebuilt fuel pump for you) in my barry box of bits.

[Kiwibirdman]

43 minutes ago, chris r said:

how you/brother/dad/uncle/cousin/mate used to have one

Had had a nice hq wagon then wrote it off on the motorway 

 

- why my mrs is now tougher and cooler than me

Your both a catch xo

- why big Australian cars with a mix of metric and imperial fasteners are better than silly little European ones that only use metric ( i had to dig out my very limited and mismatched Imperial sockets and wrenches that had been banished to the back of bottom draw of the tool box and put them right in the top bit )

Adjustable spanner doesn't care about metric or imperial 

- where to get new parts easily/cheaply/locally

 

Ebay has been pretty good for stuff if you are patient 

 

- why the second hand stuff on FBMP is outrageously priced and clearly owned by meth head bogans and how to avoid them 

 

 

- tips and tricks for hotting up your 173 using OEM + parts (commie inlet and exhaust manifolds? - the single stromberg and right angled log exhaust manifold offends me!))

Nah m8 get a set of flows and str8frew exhaust and it'll go like a cut cat that's had three of its legs cut off 

 

- can you bolt a 202 to the Torana 4 speed?

Probably 

- where to find a nice 202. 

 

 

- why do i even want a 202 (re-rego mainly), the 173 is probably perfectly fine, KPie doesnt really care (unless its a v8), and it wont be the engine from the Torana any more, 

They are all bags of hammers 

- where the fuck is the fill port for the CNG system on this car? (its not behind the number plate with the petrol filler) 

First to answer the questions. All 6 cylinder Holden motors share the same bell housing pattern, so swapping the 173 for a 202 of any vintage is a bolt in.

The CNG fill port is under the bonnet as part of the pipe work. I had an HJ ex taxi on CNG and my grand father had his Austin Princess converted back in the day. The all filled under the bonnet, LPG had the remote filler.

My first Holden was HQ sedan, 202 and factory Tbar auto and bucket seats. Pretty flash in the day. That got a 253 swapped in one weekend when the 202 and auto got worn out.

Also had HQ ute, 308 and auto, would run mid 14s down the strip, HJ ex taxi, HX wagon, HZ sedan. Awesome vehicles, wish I still had the last HZ.

My step father had a HQ wagon that got a celica 5 speed. I also put power steering in it. Good car to drive.

Power steering is possibly one of the best upgrades to make them nice to drive.

[yoeddynz]

You did well @Kiwibirdman. You answered all 18 questions! 

[Kiwibirdman]

1 hour ago, yoeddynz said:

You did well @Kiwibirdman. You answered all 18 questions! 

Perfect topic for a H series Holden Barry like me.

[Lord Gruntfuttock]

H series Holdens, X series coons and V series Vals FTW...

[cletus]

the best barry bullshit yarn i ever got was from someone that claimed their 186 powered land rover was capable of dropping it into 3rd gear on the motorway and spinning the tyres and beating xxx type of cars at the lights etc etc

 

 

[tortron]

70 year old crossplys?

[azzurro]

My other old Holden story is my (step) Uncle Gary is into them, and still has a pile of them (in northland)

Me and my step bro learned to drive a rusty/mostly fibreglass HR? Ute that he must have given his brother (my step dad/old man) to use in the 5 acre paddock we had out the back of the house. It was good for chucking old farm crap (rubbish, fence posts, thistle, boxthorn etc) into to take to the bonfire pile and doing donuts in the paddock that couldnt be seen from the house.

The problem was, that the donuts left marks in the grass that could be seen by the old man when he went on his walks around the place, so then we couldnt do that any more.

I remember getting it stuck once and not being able to rock it out of the hole it had dug (i was like 12, the only thing i new which was giving it more jandal wasn't working - what to do???) and Gary saying, ill show ya, jumping in and rowing the column change and heavy clutch between 1st and reverse like a drift car driver, SKILLZ!

From what i can recall the ute disappeared when we had tidied up most of the paddock and built some fences, Uncle Gary probably grabbed it back, and probably still has it.

 

Less classic Holden yarns

The old man also had a series of new two tone (maroon upper, silver lower) V8 Calais, i think VS, VSII and then maybe a VT, before changing tack to a V8 Cherokee (in the same colour) - i think he said the Holden salesman gave him some side eye or tried to stiff him on the trade in or something, and after buying 3 new top spec cars in 5ish years told them to shove it and must have gone to the Jeep place instead.

The VS was the best one (IMO 12yo opinion) still love those flat rear arches.

Mum also had a first gen Opel Vectra GT at the same time, that was pretty quick too (when the old man drove it!) and had a great sporty exhaust note

The 90s were a good time.

[bryck]

Old man had a Kingswood wagon when I was 7 or 8. He swapped a Chevy big block in, not sure exactly what size but it was rowdy.

I remember when he sold it, guy who bought it was in a wheelchair, had no legs, tried to pay in weed. So yeah the 90s were interesting

[Lord Gruntfuttock]

My old ute sat decomposing in the back yard, and the dodgy neighbour asked if he could work on it to pass the time. He was just out of jail and not working.

I said sure, then a month later he was back in jail and ute was missing. Never reported it cos was worth fuck all then (late 90s).

Wonder if it's too late to ask the coppers if it's still alive... 

[Otodat]

Solid cruiser, should be driving in no time.

[xsspeed]

Lush, our hx prem (was Mrs' uncles) is also from fielding, had the floods go through it in the mid-late noughties then we picked it up in 2009 and its followed us around waiting for love since. Yours appears in much better knick, hoping your progress motivates mine

[cletus]

A crisp high 5 to both of you for your rapid progress 

[yoeddynz]

It's such a noble old beast. Gonna be super cool to cruise in. 

[sr2]

Being a Holden 6 cyl. junkie from way back I’m loving your build, nothing better than a pink HQ with a 6 in it! The HQ master cylinders were never the world’s most reliable and when combined with the big single diaphragm Mastervac booster they were best described as being only adequate. I could never figure why they didn’t fit a tandem booster as BPR were supplying them for other Aussie cars at the time.

The bad news is that brake fluid in your booster is usually fatal, there’s a small indentation in the booster body where the m/cyl is mounted that is supposed to act as a drain in the event of a m/cyl failure. If the fluid has been leaking out from there you may get away with replacing the input seal; if fluid has made its way through to the booster it’s a matter of when rather than if the booster diaphragm fails. Easiest way to check for fluid in the booster is to remove the vacuum check valve and grommet and poke your finger in there - (I could make a rude innuendo but I won’t!).

You can still get HQ booster kits (diaphragm, input & pushrod seal and reaction disk) in Aussie, I haven’t bought a kit for a while so can’t guess the price but the m/cyl’s are bloody expensive. My preferred fix is to fit a Commodore VT to Vx M/cyl and Booster. You need to make up a firewall spacer/adaptor but it’s a simple modification, the pedal feel is improved with the tandem diaphragm Mastervac and the parts are cheap as chips 2^nd hand.

[sr2]

Jeeze I just spotted this on Trademe - speak of the bloody devil!

 

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/car-parts-accessories/holden/brakes/listing/4706364924?bof=Fx6hYD2b

 

 

 

 

 

[sr2]

Being a self-confessed 6 cyl Holden slut I feel morally (and immorally) obliged to subject you all to ‘the World of 9 port Holden 6’s according to the long winded sr2”.

 

·        Any girl that drives a pink 6cyl HQ has to be tough and cool and if she can back a trailer and fillet fish Kpie just may have found the perfect woman!

·        All blocks from the 149 to the 202 share the same external dimensions and bellhousing stud patterns, the only difference being in the cylinder wall thicknesses. The 3.3 (202) Blue and Black motors blocks are the same but they were fitted with 12 port heads and only appeared in the nasty horrible “modern” Commodores.

·        All red cranks were the same with the exception of the 202 which had the stroke increased from 3” to 3.25” and has larger main journals.  There were both steel and cast versions of the 3” crank with the steel crank being the traditionally preferred option but in my books if Brock won Bathurst with a cast crank its good enough for me. The Blue/ Black crank shares the same journal dimensions as the 202 but is counterbalanced and runs smoother.

·        With the increased stroke the 202 runs a piston with a higher gudgeon height to correct compression ratios. Some claim this makes the 202 more prone to piston failure but in 40 years of playing with Holden 6’s I’ve never seen anything to substantiate it.

·        Bottom line is there is still no substitute for cubes, a 202 will always produce more HP and torque. That aside I’m still in love with the smaller displacement engines. The 186 was a square 3” x 3” engine that really started Holden 6’s being taken seriously and who could forget Brock canning the living daylights out of a 173 (2850cc) Torana to take out Bathurst against the bigger V8’s.

·        The 9 port head with its siamesed inlets is somewhat asthmatic and comes in a high or low compression variation, just Google it’s easy to spot the difference. Be a little careful of running the high compression heads on the larger displacement engines. They were originally designed for 100 leaded gas; combine this with the fact that most of the heads and blocks out there have been skimmed a few times and you’ll end up with too much compression for modern gas and will have to pull a lot of spark out to avoid pinking. Don’t even contemplate going over a 9.5 to 1 compression ratio.

·        First step is to fit the HEI ignition from a Blue/Black Commodore. You’ll get better starting, economy, smoother running and reliability. Remember to get the ignition coil as well; it’s different from the old ballasted coil from the points setup.

·        A good set of headers with a carburation upgrade makes a big difference (you do need both). I avoid 350 Holleys like the plague, they guzzle gas, are pricks to setup and aren’t much of an improvement on the standard carb. A 34 ADM Weber of an XE/XF Falcon is a great improvement and my favourite single carb for a mildly tweaked Red 6 is the progressive choke 28/36 or 32/36 DCD Weber. The 390 vac secondary 4 barrel Holley is the choice if you’re building a single carb monster.

·        Just a quick note, although it flies in the face of conventional wisdom with a single carb setup always have the water heating on the inlet manifold connected. The benefits of keeping the air/fuel mixture in suspension outweighs disadvantage from the reduced density of the inlet charge.

·        With 3 siamesed inlet ports a triple carb setup is the obvious (and expensive) way to go. The XU1’s ran Stromberg’s - very hard to find an original set these days.  Triple 1 ¾” H6 SU’s are Classic and easy to tune and live with while a set of triple DCOE Webers needs big money and even bigger engine mods.

·        An aftermarket cam makes a huge difference, don’t go too silly on the specs, when in doubt keep it mild. Franklin cams are the experts.  

·        With ignition, exhaust, carburation and camshaft sorted you’ll have one very sweet street motor.

·        The Holden Red’s 9 port head is its Achilles Heel. This is where you can find the real power with larger valves, porting and flow testing but it gets expensive very quickly. If you can find a Yella Terra head (there’s still a few around) snap it up, the red 6’s love them.

 

Sorry for the lengthy diatribe, once I started it was hard to stop. Just remember these motors first saw light in 1963. You can’t compare them to modern motors but for a readily available, easily modified, classic motor they are nothing but all class!

[azzurro]

Cheers mang,

these old pigs are new to me, but i know there are plenty out there that have forgotten more than ill ever know about them, and everything that could be done has been done 100 times before, so thanks for sharing your experience

At the moment, the engine is the least of our worries, seems to start and run well now with the pretty minor refreshing we have done so far. Its unlikely to be driving very far any time soon.

Ill certainly be grabbing those sorts of bits and pieces when they appear if i see them to build up a 'performance package'. 

I had a look at a couple of V* commies when i was at PaP for the booster etc you mentioned too, so thanks for that (all 3 were already gone). Commies of that era are pretty common FBMP wrecking fare in my part of the world too, so will go that route when im back home and dont need to have suspicious looking heavy meatal objects in my carryon

Also, KPie isnt too fussed about going fast, this engine is also part of the cars family history (173 and 4 speed from the family torana her brother rolled), having said that, she would be happy with a V8 too, simply because "those are the ones that make that noise that i like :)".

While she has good taste in cars (pink hq) and poor taste in men (me), she neither backs trailers (just nope) nor fillets fish (life long vegetarian)  , but please dont let that stop you from offering your helpful advice