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re-registering a vehicle

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Ahh, good to know what sort of car. So like quite a few NZ assembled cars in the 1970s by Todd Motors where shells were shipped here with no chassis numbers stamped and not necessarily ever were (ala Datsun 1600s and some Mazdas) and they just relied on a manufacturer ID tag. 

So the ID tag on the car, on face of it, is for the wrong body style and recorded manufacturer (Chrysler/Hillman) and that is what leads you to believe it has had the plates tags swapped? Has the question been asked directly of the current/previous owner?

It may be just a mistake. I have seen a ton of mistakes for old cars. Peoples recording ability in the 70s-80s was just absolute rubbish. If it was assembled here in NZ then it could have been some muppet on the production line that put the wrong tag on the wrong shell. You could investigate this further. If you contact Land Transport they should be able to tell you any history of colour changes to the car.

ie, its original details may have been changed - colour or body style. It might be obvious that the car in front of you was originally brown, or you have scratched some paint off and seen brown at the bottom (unlikely someone has EVER done a bare metal interior/exterior paint on an Avenger.) If the original colour for the plates, matches the car in front of you, this could indicate a mistaken ID tag put on the car.

I have used the above before. A car I have owned had a chassis number stamped into it that looked like it had been done by a kid (wonky) and in a different place from JDM assembled models. But after confirming chassis number range allocation for exact model year for NZ assembled cars as well as the different chassis number location directly with the manufacturer I took a further step. I confirmed with Land Transport that the car was originally registered as yellow and had been changed to green in 2006 and blue in 2008. I could see areas of the original colour in the boot were yellow under blue and green. I was then satisfied convinced that the car was legit and the person who stamped the chassis number needed their eyes fixed.

A further glimmer of hope is in the engine no. Land Transport (not car jam) can search via engine number. The details will only be lost if the original car was deregistered around 1990.

Failing that all you can do is ask a Land Transport inspector, spell it all out and hope you get one that is up with the play / cares about old cars. Even that is difficult. 

 

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21 minutes ago, ajg193 said:

Old rego system is full of errors, just go to the post office or NZTA and have the rego changed from sedan to wagon. Then only the most barry of wof inspectors would ever pick up on it. The car is older than most wof inspectors.

 

There are heaps of Starlet hatchbacks registered as sedans and even vans.

 

 

Sound straight forward but have you actually tried to change the body type recently? I thought it could be done with a conversation but learnt there is now a form.

I tried that once a couple of years ago, same deal. A car registered as a saloon when it was a sedan. I got told I needed to fill out the form and get proof in the form of a statement from the manufacturer and that the chassis number matched the body style so never bothered. Once again, gotta get the right person on the desk on any given day. 

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11 minutes ago, Flauski said:

A car registered as a sedan when it was a saloon.

What's the difference apart from one is American speak and the other is English?

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Mazda 1300 coupe - two door coupe roof

Mazda 1300 sedan - 4 door

Mazda 1300 saloon - 2 door same body shape as 4 door.

Well that is how it was explained to me moons ago. The interwebs says a sedan/saloon is the same same Tomato / Tomato. 

I can't remember which body style it was but it was not correct, I just used sedan / saloon as an example because it rang a bell.

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Yeah, it's not due to a mistake in the records. I have been talking with the seller and I got them to post a photo the VIN plate which is on the car. Which is this one.

1004166679.jpg

That decodes to a 1979 Chrysler Avenger GLS sedan with a vinyl roof.

That tag does match the plates on the car

1002995474.jpg

In 78 they did a face lift on the Avenger a 1979 Chrysler wagon would look like mine. They changed the front grill, indicators, bumpers and dashboard. The Wagon for sale is 100% a pre-78 Hillman

IMG_E6643_zpsgwmgxrjm.jpg

So it couldn't have been a mix up on the assembly line because there is 2 years difference between when they stopped making Hillman's and when the tag was made. So it has to have been switched.

You could go in and try to change the body type to a wagon, with you get you closer to what the car actually it, but it's still not an 1979 wagon, so to get it fully matching you would need to change the year to 77 or earlier, and the make from a Chrysler to a Hillman.

If you look it up in carjam https://www.carjam.co.nz/car/?plate=jh4031 you will see there is a drop in the ODO in 2010. That's when I think the plates were swapped, before that, it's last WOF with in 1999 at 65,937 km. which would have been on the old sedan body. Then it's next WOF was in 2009 at 38,306 (Ignore the 383,066 km, thats just someone not knowing it's a 5 digit odo and putting down the decimal) Which would have been when he swapped it over to the wagon body. This makes sense as the current owner said they owned it for about 7 years so he would have swapped the plates over to the wagon, just before selling it, and then you can see that by the 27,000km drop in the odo

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10 minutes ago, Avenga said:

Yeah, it's not due to a mistake in the records. I have been talking with the seller and I got them to post a photo the VIN plate which is on the car. Which is this one.

1004166679.jpg

That decodes to a 1979 Chrysler Avenger GLS sedan with a vinyl roof.

That tag does match the plates on the car

 

I'm getting lost here.

tag don't match shell?

tag don't match plates?

plates match shell? If tag doesn't match plates, what does chassis number on tag come back to?

 

 

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They changed both the ID tag, and the plates over. They took the number plate and the ID tag from the 1979 Chrysler Avenger GLS sedan, with the vinyl roof. And they put it on to this pre-1978 Hillman Avenger wagon.

Other than the number plate and tag, which have been swapped, there are no other identifiable markings on an Avenger so there is no way to tell what the original number plate or ID tag was.

Except for the engine number, but that could have been changed at some point

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IMO -

accept that the year will never match.

Attempt to change description from sedan to wagon by claiming mistake on records. but as @Flauski has said , that isn't always easy either.

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My bad, I see you said the tag does match the plates, I thought it says doesn't. 

I would still get the original colour info for the vehicle that the plates belong to (from land transport) and see if it matches the original colour od the shell in front of you.

A mistake, even though it would be epic is still plausible when they are assembling cars in the 70s, literally grabbing the next shell and next ID tag off the pile and uniting them. 

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1 hour ago, Flauski said:

My bad, I see you said the tag does match the plates, I thought it says doesn't. 

I would still get the original colour info for the vehicle that the plates belong to (from land transport) and see if it matches the original colour od the shell in front of you.

A mistake, even though it would be epic is still plausible when they are assembling cars in the 70s, literally grabbing the next shell and next ID tag off the pile and uniting them. 

Not unless they had a time machine :D The Hillman wagon body was made at least 2 years before that Chrysler tag was made. The last of the pre-face lift models, which the wagon is was sold in 77, and the tag that's on it was from a 79. 

This is what the Hillman tags looked like. This one is from an early hillman 1600 Super sedan, the wagon would have originally the same style of tag, just with a 7M45 in the chassis number. 

IMG_7352_zpstmsizgoc.jpg

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Geez guys.  He's asking if there's a legitimate way.  Everyone knows there's a million non legitimate ways. 

If you could trace back the original plate from the owner who is the likely culprit of the switch then you may be able to prove identity to that vehicle using the colour option Flauski has mentioned as well as the wagon shape body style, etc etc. There should be enough information on record depending on when it was let to run out of reg. 

Finding a photo of it would be your best proof of registration, tied to an owner, etc. Once you have that plate number and some corresponding registration documentation to prove it has been on the road before you could potentially re register it the same as you would any other dead reg vehicle.  You'd clearly have to surrender the current plates and tags though. 

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Thanks. I thinks also looking at the photos some more I have narrowed it down to either a 1976 or 1977 wagon, which could help. Because it has the pre-facelift dash and grill, it has to be before 78 and because it has the metal window winders then it needs to be after 75, so that narrows it down to a 2 year window.

I'll see if they still have contract details of the owner who did the switch, you could probably track him down through the ownership papers also. They said he was an old guy so fingers crossed he is still with us after 7 years

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It's also not unheard of for cars to sit around for a year or 2 on the lot before being sold and then registered as that year instead of their build year. I reckon you could just about convince the NZTA that it's all just a big misunderstanding/they probably don't even care.

 

This sounds like a lot of effort for a car nobody really likes?

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28 minutes ago, ajg193 said:

It's also not unheard of for cars to sit around for a year or 2 on the lot before being sold and then registered as that year instead of their build year. I reckon you could just about convince the NZTA that it's all just a big misunderstanding/they probably don't even care.

 

This sounds like a lot of effort for a car nobody really likes?

I like them. :-)

On the NZTA website, there is a downloadable list of pre-1990 rego details - iirc engine and chassis numbers, colours, rego date, body style, but not plate numbers.

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/new-zealand-motor-vehicle-register-statistics/new-zealand-vehicle-fleet-open-data-sets/

You could probably trace the engine number for Avenger wagons registered between 1975 and 1977, and then ask NZTA to trace the rego number and tell you if they had both been owned by the same old dude.

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1 hour ago, ajg193 said:

This sounds like a lot of effort for a car nobody really likes?

That's in the eye of the beholder. I think the Avengers are awesome and love my Avenger wagon.

56 minutes ago, locost_bryan said:

I like them. On the NZTA website, there is a downloadable list of pre-1990 rego details - iirc engine and chassis numbers, colours, rego date, body style, but not plate numbers.

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/new-zealand-motor-vehicle-register-statistics/new-zealand-vehicle-fleet-open-data-sets/

You could probably trace the engine number for Avenger wagons registered between 1975 and 1977, and then ask NZTA to trace the rego number and tell you if they had both been owned by the same old dude.

Thanks heaps for that. I should be able to find the engine number. As a practice I searched for the engine that is listed on the 

BROWN SALOON 1600 BP7H410 98319118021979200 NEW PRIVATE CHRYSLER AVENGER PETROL WHANGANUI DISTRICT 1979

That is the same area as the wagon is.

If I search for B*7M45 then I should find all 1600 wagons. There are only 15 on the list. Do they delete cars off the list as they become deregistered?

I can see my V8 wagon on the list. And it has been updated to show the engine size as 3968cc

Hmm this is actually amazingly awesome. If I search for Avenger, then it comes back with 280. So does that mean there is 280 Avengers left on the road? and only 15 wagons?

If it is updated to only show cars that are still in the system then it won't show the old detail for the wagon but it is still cool to see how many left.

Just had a reread of that page and it says

"The New Zealand vehicle fleet open data provides a point-in-time ‘snapshot’ of all vehicles currently registered in New Zealand."

So it is only ones that are still registered so the old details for the wagon won't be in it but it is still super cool that I know how many Avengers are left. I'm going to break it down, make up some lists and put them on the Avenger forum.

Thanks heaps for that info!!

 

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The NZTA still have the details for cars that were still registered when the records were computerised, but that list only has the live plates.  You might have to contact the NZTA and pay for a search of the chassis number.  I have a similar issue with lapsed rego - carjam brings up the rego details, but the chassis number is not in the NZTA spreadsheet. Fortunately I have the black plates and the chassis tag matches, so I can go through the re-registration process.

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