Adoom's 1972 Triumph 2000

[yoeddynz]

On 16/08/2022 at 20:56, SOHC said:

You can make tapperd holes by cutting the end off an old tie rod end and then drill a hole in the arm to the bolt size and heat it orange hot and drive it in. 

For a tractor etc id be happy to do this -  but I'd be a bit worried about the heat cycle weakening such a vital part on a car that sees the road eh? 

[SOHC]

2 hours ago, yoeddynz said:

For a tractor etc id be happy to do this -  but I'd be a bit worried about the heat cycle weakening such a vital part on a car that sees the road eh? 

I forged some stub axles for a Mercedes and a RHD converson steering link for a Chevrolet, heat cycles are not any worries.

Heating and beading parts might be founded apon.

[BiTurbo228]

Here's a question you've probably already considered, but how different is the geometry of your shiny new machined steering arm to that of the factory power steering dropped arms with the balljoint fitted to the opposite side of them...

From the pic on your thread it looks like you've got manual ones on your car.

[Adoom]

1 hour ago, BiTurbo228 said:

Here's a question you've probably already considered, but how different is the geometry of your shiny new machined steering arm to that of the factory power steering dropped arms with the balljoint fitted to the opposite side of them...

 

From the pic on your thread it looks like you've got manual ones on your car.

I did consider it. I did try, not very hard, to get some to measure.

The center of the balljoint needs to be about here for minimal bumpsteer. So I don't think they would drop enough. To 'flip' the balljoint, I would have to use a through-bolt and a rod end bearing instead of a factory balljoint. I'd rather use a factory balljoint for longevity. AFAIK the rules don't allow you to use an insert type thing to reverse the taper. You could ream the taper to reverse it, but then the hole would be HUGE and there won't be much material left around the hole.

[BiTurbo228]

They might be close...

I've got some on my car I need to whip off and test against the manual ones I've bought. Can see if I can do that before you're finished. Looking at where yours need to be you might not need to flip them at all.

I need to flip the ball joints on mine though. The plan is to TIG the taper up enough that you can redrill and ream it out to roughly the original dimensions. Not sure if that's allowed in your regs.

[rusty360]

How are you doing the taper? Tapered reamer or machining it.

[Adoom]

1 hour ago, rusty360 said:

How are you doing the taper? Tapered reamer or machining it.

I have a reamer, it's huge, had to get it from the US, cost me over $200.  It is the correct taper because it machined a perfect fit taper in aluminium.

I did it in the drill press, so it could have been too fast, or not enough pressure... or too much pressure. I think if I figure out the problem and try clean up the existing hole, the balljoint will go in too deep.

Early on I did try machine the taper, but it was such an awkward shape to fit in the lathe and I could not get the taper angle perfect, so I bought the reamer(the CCM says it has to be reamed anyway).

I think I'll have to try machine some test tapers in steel until I can make a good one before I scrap another thing I spent hours machining first. I probably need to go REALLY slow.

 

[rusty360]

1 hour ago, Adoom said:

I have a reamer, it's huge, had to get it from the US, cost me over $200.  It is the correct taper because it machined a perfect fit taper in aluminium.

I did it in the drill press, so it could have been too fast, or not enough pressure... or too much pressure. I think if I figure out the problem and try clean up the existing hole, the balljoint will go in too deep.

Early on I did try machine the taper, but it was such an awkward shape to fit in the lathe and I could not get the taper angle perfect, so I bought the reamer(the CCM says it has to be reamed anyway).

I think I'll have to try machine some test tapers in steel until I can make a good one before I scrap another thing I spent hours machining first. I probably need to go REALLY slow.

 

What's the taper angle? Have you got a mill? I'd say the prob is the reamer flexing in the chuck, needs to rigid as possible, you really wana ream down to a stop to because I'd say it's trying to pull the reamer in?

When I say ream down to a stop I'm meaning ethier wind the knee of the mill up or use the stop on the quill and slowly work your way down. Don't try and hit it in one go. Depending on the taper angle you could step drill it to, just so the reamer doesn't have to remove so much meat.

[Adoom]

10 hours ago, rusty360 said:

What's the taper angle? Have you got a mill? I'd say the prob is the reamer flexing in the chuck, needs to rigid as possible, you really wana ream down to a stop to because I'd say it's trying to pull the reamer in?

When I say ream down to a stop I'm meaning ethier wind the knee of the mill up or use the stop on the quill and slowly work your way down. Don't try and hit it in one go. Depending on the taper angle you could step drill it to, just so the reamer doesn't have to remove so much meat.

It's a 7 degree taper.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NMG3XWL/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Yes, I have a RF30 clone, a round column mill, so no knee, the Z axis is the quill, the whole head can be raised and lowered on the column, but it will also swing side to side so you lose any point of reference to the part.

I have the head low enough that I can just reach the bottom of the part with the endmill. But the taper needs to be cut from the top of the part, and the reamer is 165mm long and has a shank with 3 flats on it to go in a chuck, not a collet, so that makes it even longer and it doesn't fit without moving the head. So I used the drill press to avoid moving the head.

I guess I could just clamp the part directly to the table and that should hopefully give me enough room... And run the mill really slow. And use the fine feed, not the quill handle thing. 

It didn't feel like the reamer is being pulled in, the flutes are basically straight, not a spiral.

It definitely flexes in the drill press.

[Raizer]

40 minutes ago, Adoom said:

Yes, I have a RF30 clone, a round column mill, so no knee, the Z axis is the quill, the whole head can be raised and lowered on the column, but it will also swing side to side so you lose any point of reference to the part.

There's a few different fixes for this, might not be 100% but apparently this way gets him within a thou everytime

[tortron]

Blmc approved 

[Nominal]

1 hour ago, tortron said:

Blmc approved 

Even has the barry mod of being welded to the crossmember instead of being bolted under the battery tray as god intended.

[tortron]

He has an eye for detail, those look like factory welds

[rusty360]

13 hours ago, Adoom said:

It's a 7 degree taper.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NMG3XWL/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Yes, I have a RF30 clone, a round column mill, so no knee, the Z axis is the quill, the whole head can be raised and lowered on the column, but it will also swing side to side so you lose any point of reference to the part.

I have the head low enough that I can just reach the bottom of the part with the endmill. But the taper needs to be cut from the top of the part, and the reamer is 165mm long and has a shank with 3 flats on it to go in a chuck, not a collet, so that makes it even longer and it doesn't fit without moving the head. So I used the drill press to avoid moving the head.

I guess I could just clamp the part directly to the table and that should hopefully give me enough room... And run the mill really slow. And use the fine feed, not the quill handle thing. 

It didn't feel like the reamer is being pulled in, the flutes are basically straight, not a spiral.

It definitely flexes in the drill press.

Please tell Me if I'm telling you to suck eggs here.

Also remember a reamer will just follow the hole before it. If the drilled hole was a bit Oct or triangle shaped the reamer will try and do the same thing especially in a drill chuck. Have you got a boring bar for the mill?

 

 

[Adoom]

9 hours ago, rusty360 said:

Please tell Me if I'm telling you to suck eggs here.

Also remember a reamer will just follow the hole before it. If the drilled hole was a bit Oct or triangle shaped the reamer will try and do the same thing especially in a drill chuck. Have you got a boring bar for the mill?

 

 

I learn all my machining from youtube and trial and error, advice and suggestions are welcome.

Ah, okay, I initially just wanted to start the reamer in the drill press so it was straight and continue by hand with the big tap wrench so didn't clamp it down, just held it still, but I got overzealous with the definition of "start" and it grabbed and got a gouge in the side of the hole. I assumed the reamer would be able to clean that up, but I guess it just followed the gouge.

I don't have a boring bar or boring head for the mill. But a boring head is on my wish list. 

[Tiger Tamer]

I think 8mm is the maximum change in Toe you can have if you haven't had your bump steer measured before your modification. So you are on the edge there. 

[cletus]

lvvta say 10mm is generally the limit for newer vehicles or custom independent suspension

20mm for older cars 

 

id think 8 mm is likely fine, and probably better than original.

 

where the toe change occurs in the suspension travel is also important

[Adoom]

 

1 hour ago, Tiger Tamer said:

I think 8mm is the maximum change in Toe you can have if you haven't had your bump steer measured before your modification. So you are on the edge there. 

Is that 8mm based on their hypothetical 575mm diameter wheel? They use that size because it makes the conversion from mm to degrees super easy. Eg 10mm is 1 degree.

According to the LVVTA infosheets there's no fixed maximum amount of toe change that is acceptable. It depends on the vehicle. It's supposed to be "the same or better than factory".

16 minutes ago, cletus said:

lvvta say 10mm is generally the limit for newer vehicles or custom independent suspension

20mm for older cars 

 

id think 8 mm is likely fine, and probably better than original.

 

where the toe change occurs in the suspension travel is also important

I think that 8mm was a measuring error due to the awkward way I'd previously been measuring it. 

This is what I've got so far. Spacing the rack up by 2.5mm seems to have made little difference. I could possibly go another 4mm before I have clearance issues.

 

[Tiger Tamer]

8mm is what the certifier told me I had to achieve when I Changed the Sunbeam tigers steering rack to a mx5 power steering rack. If I had the Toe change measured before I had pulled it apart then I would have only needed to make an improvement. I made my own bump steer bars from looking at their photos and using the measurement they gave to work out approx how long they were. I measured I had 3mm of toe change through the entire amount of suspension travel  using them and that was the same as they measured on the wheel alignment machine. 

 

I found your making of your steering arms very interesting. If you get some cast you have to have some broken to test their strength.

Do you have to go through that process milling them out of a block of steel ?

[Adoom]

2 minutes ago, Tiger Tamer said:

8mm is what the certifier told me I had to achieve when I Changed the Sunbeam tigers steering rack to a mx5 power steering rack. If I had the Toe change measured before I had pulled it apart then I would have only needed to make an improvement. I made my own bump steer bars from looking at their photos and using the measurement they gave to work out approx how long they were. I measured I had 3mm of toe change through the entire amount of suspension travel  using them and that was the same as they measured on the wheel alignment machine. 

Damn, that's a good outcome for yours. I'm going to try space the rack up further to see if it makes much difference.