Truenotch Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 It went extremely well.... This happened recently though: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock-Lee Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 Apart from rookie not playing nice. Why was his post removed, it had good info in it Good info about what? the flow rates of a 6/71? What was in the posts deleted (from everybody) was mostly true and has the potential useful, just not to this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honda Ass Dragger Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 It went extremely well.... This happened recently though: Geeze that would have been an expensive crash That Prelude looks as if it has / had some serious legs for a 1600 though Would be keen as for more info on the engine set up, the pictures from trademe never really showed much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUNAMUCK Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 After having a huge chat to Dan last night as Simon's, (And laying awake half the night thinking about it) I see that the pic I reposted above Would result in compound charging before the turbo spooled. This alone wouldn't be a bad thing, but it would mean an actual boost drop at the point where the turbo took over from the blower. Dan is all over it with his idea of running seperate Airboxes for the turbo and supercharger. And running like a BOV (looped back into the airbox) to prevent the turbo from being deadheaded when the Valve in the turbo outlet is closed. This enabling the turbo to flow air and spool boost. (The restriction for it to boost aginst would be the oriface in the BOV. Given that It'll be supercharged, it'll be quite easy to trial and error what size orriface the BOV would need, and how much turboboost is needed so that the turbo kicks in hard(er) than the supercharger boost that will already be present. (without getting a blip, bog, or hesitiation when the changeover occours. The more I think about this, the better and better the posibilties seem to have the boost level (and the kick in) adjustable so that you could jump from 10psi to 20psi instantly............. I've learned a lot from this thread. Thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nismo.capri Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 After having a huge chat to Dan last night as Simon's, (And laying awake half the night thinking about it) I see that the pic I reposted above Would result in compound charging before the turbo spooled. This alone wouldn't be a bad thing, but it would mean an actual boost drop at the point where the turbo took over from the blower. Pissed I missed most of that sorting out the esky .....so are we back to running it parallel? Dan is all over it with his idea of running seperate Airboxes for the turbo and supercharger. And running like a BOV (looped back into the airbox) to prevent the turbo from being deadheaded when the Valve in the turbo outlet is closed. This enabling the turbo to flow air and spool boost. (The restriction for it to boost aginst would be the oriface in the BOV. So how's the BOV controlled? There isn't going to be any vacuum anywhere except the inlet to the blower and then I don't know if it will be enough. This is why I was thinking a MAF and solenoid(s) would be the go because it could dialed in nicely????? Given that It'll be supercharged, it'll be quite easy to trial and error what size orriface the BOV would need, and how much turboboost is needed so that the turbo kicks in hard(er) than the supercharger boost that will already be present. (without getting a blip, bog, or hesitiation when the changeover occours. This is why I'm keen on Dan keeping the fixed pulley on the blower if the blower is powered there's no need for a non return valve to stop the blower venting boost from the turbo and there won't be a blip, bog, or hesitiation when the changeover occours. It's not the best idea for sure but it make it simpler to get it running as it will let us dodge the crossover issue completely, it might even work in our favor and let Dan run an even bigger exhaust housing. The more I think about this, the better and better the posibilties seem to have the boost level (and the kick in) adjustable so that you could jump from 10psi to 20psi instantly............. Like when you are hitting 3rd gear at the strip and traction is better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUNAMUCK Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 I didn't actually sit down and think about where said vaccuum signal might come from. (hence saying like a BOV) But yeah, I'd lean towards having things electrically operated too. Nice to have met you Simon, shame it was so dark, I couldn't get a proper look at your engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 stepper motor/s maybe of use. map open % vs boost pressure etc. would have to have a capable ecu of couse. later model sc14's have a fairly decent butterfly stepper on them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 I dont get why all of these proposed twincharge set ups are so complicated? Why or how would it have to work any differently to a twin turbo setup, where two turbos are feeding to an intercooler and then a plenum? It's irrelevant that one of them will be driven mechanically, rather than by exhaust gas, apart from the manner in which it provides the air. I'm also suspicious of when people talk about compound charging in terms of "Well the blower is blowing 10psi, and then its multiplied by the turbo which is blowing 10psi.... PSI is only used in this context as a measure of manifold pressure, ie. right at the intake, whatever's feeding it prior to that point, and whatever pressure it gets to is irrelevant? Apparently there's a Volvo boat motor that is twin charged from factory, not sure about any more details than that though. IF you had the outlet of both the turbo and the supercharger feeding into a Y pipe that lead to the intercooler, I cant see why it would cause problems if you just turn the supercharger off when need be, unless air could leak back out through the supercharger the other way or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nismo.capri Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 I didn't actually sit down and think about where said vaccuum signal might come from. (hence saying like a BOV) But yeah, I'd lean towards having things electrically operated too. Anyone know of a good cheap solenoid or actuator? Nice to have met you Simon, shame it was so dark, I couldn't get a proper look at your engine. Glad you made it over! ...I'm out there all today the beers start in the afternoon if you are passing. Hopefully Dan will be over some time to give me a hand with the gear stick hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nismo.capri Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 I dont get why all of these proposed twincharge set ups are so complicated?Why or how would it have to work any differently to a twin turbo setup, where two turbos are feeding to an intercooler and then a plenum? The problem is when the blower is boost if the turbo isn't blocked the flow goes out the turbo and the inlet manifold wont get pressurised. It's irrelevant that one of them will be driven mechanically, rather than by exhaust gas, apart from the manner in which it provides the air. Yes it is. I'm also suspicious of when people talk about compound charging in terms of "Well the blower is blowing 10psi, and then its multiplied by the turbo which is blowing 10psi.... The guys are right about compound supercharging it does multiply the total boost. Have a read of that wiki quote PSI is only used in this context as a measure of manifold pressure, ie. right at the intake, whatever's feeding it prior to that point, and whatever pressure it gets to is irrelevant? assuming the intake charge is at the same temp higher pressure means more oxygen per CC which will get more power, unless the chocking point has been reached. Apparently there's a Volvo boat motor that is twin charged from factory, not sure about any more details than that though. IF you had the outlet of both the turbo and the supercharger feeding into a Y pipe that lead to the intercooler, I cant see why it would cause problems if you just turn the supercharger off when need be, unless air could leak back out through the supercharger the other way or something. Exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nismo.capri Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 stepper motor/s maybe of use. map open % vs boost pressure etc. would have to have a capable ecu of couse. later model sc14's have a fairly decent butterfly stepper on them On the bypass valve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nismo.capri Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 This was what I had setup in my capri before the VG30DET went in, never ran it with the turbo though, at that point it was just the SC-14 and injection. I was having issues deciding how to plumb it then I got a too good deal on the VG30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUNAMUCK Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 Thats a good looking set up Simon. I love the turbo manifold especially. Although having blowthrough efi is underutilised if an intercooler is included. Are those manifolds hard to obtain? Anyone know of a good cheap solenoid or actuator? I'm fairly certin that a subaru leone central locking solenoid would be just the ticket. The mechanically driven Charger steals horsepower from the crank in order to make said boost. So once the turbo has begun pumping (utilising the wasted heat energy from the exhaust gases) there is no sence in continuing to waste crank power when the trubo can do it for "free" (granted their are tradeoffs with a turbo) IF you had the outlet of both the turbo and the supercharger feeding into a Y pipe that lead to the intercooler, I cant see why it would cause problems if you just turn the supercharger off when need be, unless air could leak back out through the supercharger the other way or something. Yes it would leak back out through the supercharger. (which I think Simon already alluded to) Given that many engines can draw air through a supercharger which isn't being driven, having (say 18psi of) boost pushing again the blower outlet side whilest it wasn't being driven it would turn backwards and bleed off precious boost. (read horsepower) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 sc14 stepper would need a couple of them in parallel. if you wanted them to see the flow of sc or turbo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nismo.capri Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 Thats a good looking set up Simon. I love the turbo manifold especially. Although having blowthrough efi is underutilised if an intercooler is included. Are those manifolds hard to obtain? Yep, a friend and I made it ...well he designed and welded it I did the grinding and linishing. I forgot to say it's for an evo 5 turbo I'm fairly certin that a subaru leone central locking solenoid would be just the ticket. That will handle the vibrations, might need some heat shielding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nismo.capri Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 sc14 stepper would need a couple of them in parallel. if you wanted them to see the flow of sc or turbo. Is that a TPS on the other side to monitor position? I haven't dicked with stepper motors since back in the days when I was VJ at raves. I built a kit that controlled 2 steppers via a PC parallel port to make patterns with a laser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 yeh, ej20 tps. had to attach it for feedback to ecu. need at least g3 with g4 firmware, if running a link, to control it though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nismo.capri Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 yeh, ej20 tps. had to attach it for feedback to ecu. need at least g3 with g4 firmware, if running a link, to control it though Haven't played with a newer Link yet. Good to hear it supports steppers. That would make the tuning way easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AE25 Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 any updates on this? surprised there be no mention of where the throttle is positioned. will make a big difference to how it operates. throttle before the sc is safe option. and does not necessarily require a bypass valve due to sc operating in a vacuum. the ABV you see on toyota sc12/sc14 are there to create an on/off boost transition when the charger is switched and gives better efficiency when transitioning off boost (but charger on). using these factory fitted abv in a setup that has throttle after sc may be too restrictive of air flow and could allow the s/c to create boost when throttle is shut. So it should be pointed out that in any setup with throttle after a positive displacement charger (roots), the setup MUST use a recirculating valve big enough to reduce pressure back close to atmospheric if you want any sort of reliability and economy when not boosting. not to mention extra noise created from the pulses being pushes through a restriction. not using one could be catastrophic due to bent/broken throttle shaft. roots + restriction = pressure. if you're lucky you'll pop a hose off. Funny how people without one complain of belt slipping or black dust around the drive belt. put throttle before roots and its not an issue. A traction control butterfly could be an option for a bypass valve (throttle after sc) as they're often stepper motor controlled so long as you have the electronics to drive one. need to check it's air tight when closed. The intake vacuum valve on a diesel could be an option. these are often operated via a diaphragm or stepper motor. not all types are air tight though. A poppet valve ie 'external wastegate' are suitable so long as the diaphragm is large. The diaphragm has to overcome the spring pressure that's holding the valve shut. these are probably the most common valve used like in the HKS 4agze twincharge kit. a BOV are not suitable due to their sudden release of air. (uncontrollable). don't know about you guys, but i'd get pretty annoyed driving that orange twincharged volvo powered Kadett. The amount of charger noise that thing makes is horrible. Looks like he's running a parallel system blowing into a flapper valve with throttle after chargers. one of the very few! (never saw the logic in this compared to a series setup). and yes roots chargers make noise. factory setups don't usually use gilmours! The factory toyota setups are not too noticeable in noise due to them having the throttle before the charger. this effectively muffles the pulses eminating from the charger at partial throttle position and reduces how much air is actually being pumped when throttle is shut (running in a vacuum).. so reduces the medium for noise to travel. BUT swap the charger in front of the throttle and you have a direct noise path back up the intake. have any restriction after that charger and noise is more of an issue. The noise is most likely to come out of the recirculation system after the charger. The twin lobe roots chargers are pretty much the worst for creating inlet pulses. Toyota used an expansion chamber on the 2tzfze sc14 to reduce noise. search youtube for the sc 5k ke70 or ke35. borrrrrrrrrrr There is an artical in think on autospeed.com about supercharging a prius for the author's missus. They tried various ways to baffle,muffle, suppress noise. The outcome was it was eventually canned due to noise. maybe not a consideration as a sprint/gymkhana car but i'd get pretty annoyed if it were a daily driver. (i'd compare it to open wastegates or fart cannons on auto vtaks). [insert puke face here] one of the best sources of twincharge info imo is the eng-tips.com forum. see comments by 'warpspeed'. one insane car to come out of this is Donald's black evo5 twincharger in scotland or up that ways. user 'madmac666' or 'evomadmac' on youtube. his build thread is http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=315815. impressive to say the least. Interesting to note that in his compound charged system, heat was an issue. this was rectified by balancing the system and better efficiency from the charger. ok nuff said. me like this subject. one day this will be done and i'll have my own experience on the subject... http://toycrazy.net/mark/KE25engine.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AE25 Posted December 17, 2010 Share Posted December 17, 2010 madmac's youtube. if only i could get the keys to that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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