mikuni Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Oh shit, just sent you a link to a cheap G4 spence, but I guess thats not going to happen with this revelation. Let me know when you order, and I'll jump on board too. When I fail at it you can fix it for me Tuning screens look pretty straight forward though, pretty amping to give it a go actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truenotch Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Shiii... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 MS3 definitely looks mint. 6x6 table for VVTI doesnt seem like much, but it's a lot more than having fixed cams! And if it blends as a ratio between those tables then maybe its alright. I've got a copy of the VVTI advance/retard maps from the powerfc here, pretty much more air in the combustion chamber = less advance. Obviously the shape of the map would be a hell of a lot different if with a MAP sensor though I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esprit Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 As Brad said, if anyone's after a cheap G4Xtreme, I can hook them up. It looks like I've just started down the VEEEEEEEERY expensive and slippery slope to Motecdom so I've got a G4Xtreme new in box with A/B connector looms ready to go to a good home for a significant saving over new. This is one of the original silver-case G4s that have the ability to control DBW throttles as well as the peak/hold injector drives meaning it can drive low-impedance injectors without ballasts. It's basically a ViPEC V88 as Link supply to them. The current "red box" Xtremes have had this extra functionality cut out of them. Sad thing is, there's not a lot the Motec gear does that this Link doesn't do and the Link even has on-board knock control, something the Motec doesn't (although arguably the Motec stuff is far more complex in its operation). The bonus for me with the Motec gear will be more around datalogging at the track and being able to simplify my in-car warnings (get rid of gauges and replace them with simplified displays)...... which is all fine and good but comes at a cost PM Me if anyone wants a good deal on a G4Xtreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 A few pics of CBR throttles for those interested. This one is a pic of the throttles and full airbox, you can see the outboards sit in the back of the airbox. The primary set of injectors sit in the throttle body just past the throttle butterfly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 A few pics of CBR throttles for those interested. This one is a pic of the throttles and full airbox, you can see the outboards sit in the back of the airbox. The primary set of injectors sit in the throttle body just past the throttle butterfly You can see that if the spacing is correct for your engine you get injectors and TPS ready to go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyBreeze Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Does bumping fuel rail pressure up a bit screw with injector spray patterns? Just thinking that cbr/other bike outboard injectors probably aren't big enough for people wanting to try them on 2L's etc - and that they would have a different spray pattern to standard bosch type aftermarket injectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Was just going to post something regarding that. Decent outboard setups run over sized injectors for the job but they use decent ones that have a decent response time. This is so they can run timed sequential injection and get the fuel in at the correct time of the intake to hopefully stop fogging. Both inner and outer CBR1000 injectors are ~300cc/min at 43psi and have a special spray head on them. Thats easy enough to support 200hp at 40-60% duty's depending how much % they run the outboards at. So even with just the inboards you could support a 200hp 2L engine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyBreeze Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Injector selection is pretty key to it i'd imagine. I guess what max duty cycle you can run on the outboards and still be timed to the valve would depend on max rpm. Can one buy fast response aftermarket injectors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Yea you can buy all sorts of fancy injectors usually peak and hold have a better response, but I'm pretty sure the CBR's are saturated (have to check). The CBR ones operate 12,000rpm and 200hp so are going to be good for most of us. This is Glenns blurb on the matter, from maybe 4 years ago now on toymods, last dyno plot I seen this thing was making 197kw without reving over 9000rpm on a beams, he hasn't posted his development since so I don't know what he's up to. His gains in the mid range are amazing! been working on this slowly over easter: to run 2 stage fuel injection . i run the in-boards up to 3500 rpm and then have the new out-boards taking over up to 8800 rpm red line .the idea was to run 440cc in the std position and then at 200mm further up the inlet track a second set of 440cc injectors .so what i have come up with was: buying some TODA parts that bolt onto the quads that also have injector bungs in them. then modifying the TRD trumpets to bolt onto the ae101 extensions, bore these out to 50mm, make up a fuel rail and make it all happen . ok finished it, then to work out the fuel , so i ended up running fuel to the new rail, coming out the end to go to the old rail and then to reg and back to the tank. after a few leakes and some new washers fixed all the leakes. dyno day well we started a run 1st to make sure of what we had (and also since i have again changed the inlet track from 195mm long to 225mm long) and also to make sure of no leakes .had a few drips and also to take off the air box incase of fires etc we started with 179 kws at back wheels then we configured the new soft ware for the out boards (the m800 has 8 injector drivers as std) then we played around with 60 % and 40% drive ratio on the new injectors till we moved them up to 10% in and 90% out... power has jumped up to 188 kws but we are getting stand off from 6500 rpm to 8800 rpm . we then changed injector timming up and down to stop the stand off , but in the end we came up with 40% in and 60% out to stop most of the stand off and as a safeguard against any fires i might get running it around the track the next stage is putting in some 720cc denso injectors which are single pintle ,not a V pintle like the 440 cc and try this also might change the inlet and exhaust cam timming to fix the stand off with the 2 stage i have increased my power all of the way through the rev range from 4000 rpm up to 8000 rpm and im talking about 10 to 15kws in certain points . at 4000 rpm i use to have 56 kws and a big flat spot to 5000 rpm now i have 80 kws at 4000 and it runs flat then up to 5000 4000 64 new is 80kws 5000 98 new 108 kws 6000 135 new 143 kws 7000 158 new 162kws 8000 170 new 176kws 8400 172 new 180 kws so this is where im at ,for the time being Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 impressive gains! will be getting a ms3 at some stage, might have to give it a go on the kp. if i read correctly, he was running the second set of injectors just below the trumpets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 apparently gained even more up top once he sorted cam and injector timing and got more % on the outboards without fogging. He ran them with a boss on the top of the trumpet, so almost at the trumpet mouth angled down the port. Best bet is in the back of the airbox like the CBR if you can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikuni Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 $100 set of silvertop throttles if anyones keen http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motor ... 050381.htm And another set for $149 http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motor ... 326851.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 So since you dont have a project thread brad, hows the vectra intake manifold going? You should use cbr throttles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark105 Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 hasn't got any flanges of me yet. also borrow your jimstim when you back from aussie spence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barf Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 @Spencer - you say "only" 6x6 as if thats a bad thing, the value output is taken from an interpolation based on this table lookup, it is smooth, there is no sudden change between values - assuming the table is 'spaced-out' correctly across the desired range of operation. bigger is always better tho even a 16x16 VE or spark table could be 'too small' if the values on the axes were not placed in the area where the greatest transience is. hope that makes sense lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike-e Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 @barf maybe so but it still limits your resolution if you want to focus on a certain rev range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 Yea 6x6 will work no question, and I know what your saying. But personally after seeing a few VVti maps I would want better resolution if possible, this goes double if it was a road car. I'm pretty sure this will happen in the future anyway, the code development is all in house for the MS3, which is going to slow down extra features happening in a hurry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barf Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 i agree the code needs to be open, i'm sticking with MS2/Extra until they GPL or open it in some way. there's a growing clone market out there that they seem to be at odds with, when they really should just embrace it. that whole 6x6 table needs to be copied from Flash or RAM to the accumulator (=clock cycles) before each group of math functions is done on it, table lookups are expensive in low-memory systems like a microcontroller. MS2 is a freescale MC9S12 - 16-bit @ ~25 MHz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freescale_ ... erivatives MS3 is a newer MC9S12 (MC9S12XEP100MAL) still 16-bit but with improvements. i suspect it's mostly a code re-write(?). http://www.freescale.com/files/microcon ... 00RMV1.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikuni Posted September 24, 2010 Share Posted September 24, 2010 Thread needs more pretty pictures to be honest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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