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Air bag suspension chat

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Looks like chassistech/airbag it.com 

They have been selling bottom of the barrel air bag stuff for a long time  

 

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25 minutes ago, cletus said:

Looks like chassistech/airbag it.com 

They have been selling bottom of the barrel air bag stuff for a long time  

 

Would something like this be hard to cert?

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I havnt seen any of it in person so I dunno... I had a look at one last week that had china bags and valves and that was really throw it all in the bin and start again  

Most of the air suspension setups I have certed have had better quality parts, and self leveling systems 

The way the rules are written, it's very difficult to get a system to comply without a self level system 

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Hey @cletus what makes systems with out e-level so hard to comply? I'm kinda thinking that extra $$$ would be the deciding factor on whether I pulled the trigger on bags or not

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The rules say you cant have individual wheel control, and you have to have a pair of valves for each bag basically, to prevent the air transferring across when you go around a corner 

So the problem with that is it's quite difficult to get a car to come up level every time when the switch for up or down operates both valves at the same time. In theory it works if the lines are all the same volume but in practice it doesnt 

The best system I've seen is the e level one that has the height sensor that attaches to the suspension rather than the pressure based system. Even those have a few issues at cert time, mostly around the controller  

The rulebook really needs an update, its 12 years old now and air suspension systems have progressed a bit from when it was written  

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Pressure only leveling systems are a waste of time IMO 

They have a preset pressure for a given ride height, ie 50psi

So you then put 3 people in the car and the suspension goes down 20mm

The pressure in the bag goes up , so the system drops it back to 50psi so the car drops lower again because of the passengers weight  

 

I checked a car once that dropped 50mm with passengers in it because of that which meant it was sitting on the bump stops. The opposite of one of the main advantages of an air suspension system 

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2 hours ago, Esky_addict said:

Hey @cletus what makes systems with out e-level so hard to comply? I'm kinda thinking that extra $$$ would be the deciding factor on whether I pulled the trigger on bags or not

Is this for the hq? You have to change to aftermarket front A arms and stuff dont you to make them work? Im not sure though there was a light blue bagged hq on here in the build threads and I think it was a ballace but can remember maybe try find it and technology has probably changed since then. It would be sick to do. Surely aussie has a kit for them by now. But they might not as they dont seem to be into max slam. 

Edit heres the link can probably get pics working on computer web browser with an addon

 

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Oh right so is any leveling programming mandatory?

 If not is what your saying that a 8 solinoid multiswitch controller setup with 2 dual gauge would be fine for cert if only the front and back switches were operational?

(If they come up and down level with out toggling individual corners)

Yea @Toddy415 for the HQ never really entertained the thought of bags, I thought they were a bit wanky but after clocking up 1500kms heading up to muscle car madness and back taking out a few catseyes and knocking the headers loose a few times i realised how practical it would be. 

I do remember having a good look at that thread years ago and it seemed like more work than I was up for but after but after checking out this build thread from aussie I changed my mind,

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.aussiev8.com.au/driveline-suspension/57576-hq-wb-airbag-suspension.html&ved=2ahUKEwj134Kp-r_nAhX87nMBHYqOAOMQFjAJegQIChAE&usg=AOvVaw2lj-lrsEA5xINN5ZQp7sxL 

And yes can buy kits for these now, I'm guessing it would be much cheaper to make up your own kit but being a bit green on this sorta stuff I'm not too sure where to start.

I assume the kits just using generic airbag gm stuff like the upper bag mounts from impala type setups

https://airide.com.au/products/hq-to-wb-holden-complete-kit

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2 hours ago, Esky_addict said:

Oh right so is any leveling programming mandatory?

No, you dont have to have a self leveling system, you would need gauges with a mark on them so you can get the height correct though

That's where it gets tricky getting the car level.

Ie if you come up, and the left side is 10psi too low, if it's only got front and back adjustment then you cant do anything. 

You can have side to side control but then for example if you hit the left side up switch then you end up with too much pressure in the left rear bag  instead  

 

 

 

I have had ideas on how to do a basic control system that would go to the same level every time but it wouldn't be able to go above ride height  

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so basically the no individual corner adjustment rule is bollocks but its there to stop everyone cruising around 3 wheeling?

Maybe a well grounded and sensible certifier could understand the logic and let it slide if I dont come across as a loco mehican if the time does arrive

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The other big reason is getting an even suspension weight on each corner, if someone was not paying attention or was an idiot it is easy to get the car level so it looks fine, but have very uneven settings- like 100psi in the left front and right rear and 20 in the other two, then you have 2 wheels that will lock up under braking, or the car will do weird things going around a corner 

The book also mentions the twisting on the vehicles structure being an issue  which makes sense if it's not a very strongly built car

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3 hours ago, Esky_addict said:

Oh right so is any leveling programming mandatory?

 If not is what your saying that a 8 solinoid multiswitch controller setup with 2 dual gauge would be fine for cert if only the front and back switches were operational?

(If they come up and down level with out toggling individual corners)

Yea @Toddy415 for the HQ never really entertained the thought of bags, I thought they were a bit wanky but after clocking up 1500kms heading up to muscle car madness and back taking out a few catseyes and knocking the headers loose a few times i realised how practical it would be. 

I do remember having a good look at that thread years ago and it seemed like more work than I was up for but after but after checking out this build thread from aussie I changed my mind,

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.aussiev8.com.au/driveline-suspension/57576-hq-wb-airbag-suspension.html&ved=2ahUKEwj134Kp-r_nAhX87nMBHYqOAOMQFjAJegQIChAE&usg=AOvVaw2lj-lrsEA5xINN5ZQp7sxL 

And yes can buy kits for these now, I'm guessing it would be much cheaper to make up your own kit but being a bit green on this sorta stuff I'm not too sure where to start.

I assume the kits just using generic airbag gm stuff like the upper bag mounts from impala type setups

https://airide.com.au/products/hq-to-wb-holden-complete-kit

Sweet, yea I want to look into bags next year once chev is on the road I want it slammed but our roads are so shit my oil pan wil be the lowest point of car to im pretty sure. 

 @cletus whats the go with enlarging the spring pockets on chassis to fit bags? All the americans just get in there and chop away I presume this is a no no here. Best to try find bags that fit without cutting but I guess that limits your selection. And dealings with NZairride was going to look into getting a kit off them. 

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Yeah will certainly be handy being able to raise er up a bit when needed, I don't find it too bad around here with regard to bottoming out but was pretty bad once we got past Clinton,

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1 hour ago, Toddy415 said:

 

 @cletus whats the go with enlarging the spring pockets on chassis to fit bags? All the americans just get in there and chop away I presume this is a no no here. Best to try find bags that fit without cutting but I guess that limits your selection. And dealings with NZairride was going to look into getting a kit off them. 

Can cut them but any strength lost has to be put back in somehow  

From memory all the ones I've done that have been built here have standard spring pockets

I havnt dealt with the air ride nz guy much but hes a good sort,  hes been mucking around with air suspension for a long time 

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Simon at Airride NZ has been around for a while, has owned some sweet air bagged vehicles. The kit I got from him (for my 61 Belair) was basically a bolt In kit, which came with the bolt in mounts that meant I didn’t need to modify the spring pockets, only thing I really had to make was front shock mounts which weren’t too hard. 
 

im using a very basic system for now, 8 valves and a 7 switch controller. However to get certified I basically ran all the 3 front and 3 rear switches through relays so even if you try to change the corners, it just controls the whole front end. It’s good for cert, but not being able to set the corner heights is a pain, good for cert, but a pain none the less. I have a weak LF shock and to get the ride heights correct I have to raise the car fully up and then lower it to the correct height. Pain in the ass, 

 

when I get around to try rebuilding the Belair I’m planning on running an E/Level to make it easier and accurate  

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On 08/02/2020 at 09:56, Toddy415 said:

Sweet, yea I want to look into bags next year once chev is on the road I want it slammed but our roads are so shit my oil pan wil be the lowest point of car to im pretty sure. 

 @cletus whats the go with enlarging the spring pockets on chassis to fit bags? All the americans just get in there and chop away I presume this is a no no here. Best to try find bags that fit without cutting but I guess that limits your selection. And dealings with NZairride was going to look into getting a kit off them. 

Because the compressed height of the bags is so much smaller that the coil you may not need cut up the pockets on the chassis - for the Mercury I did all the mods on the lower arms - the chassis spring pockets I left alone, just mounted a big chunk of pipe up there with a threaded rod for the upper bag support.

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17 minutes ago, _Matt said:

RIP Accuair :cry:

:-(

 

Hopefully someone picks up the tech and carries on, want me an Endo CVT

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On 04/07/2019 at 17:04, kyteler said:

Leaf sprung de-dion rear. 

Did you ever look into this? I’d be interested to know of any suggestions/advice/knowledge on lowering cars with this set up. 

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Have any of you driven a solid axle, leaf sprung vehicle that used bags to raise the suspension, and if so was the ride OK?

I have a 2.7 tone 1992 4x4 Toyota Dyna that's arguably subject to CoF inspections. All four springs have lost their arc so the front suspension only has about 12mm of travel before it hits the bump stops. The ride is hideous. 

The best alternative would be to get new springs made, but that's quite a risk as the existing springs are very hard to measure. The next best idea would be to remove the springs, send them to the mainland for re-setting, and then have them sent back to the Island... but a previous owner put the rear spring eye bolts in from the wrong side of the chassis, and then fitted a box body obscuring the bolt heads.... so getting the springs out is now a major drama. That option would also mean ~ a month with no vehicle.

I have been advised to fit bellows in place of the existing bump-stops (front and rear), and although I understand how a pumped up air bag would raise the vehicle I have little idea on what adding that bag to the existing leaves would do to the ride quality. I had imagined just pumping the bags up once from a 240 volt compressor.

I'd be happy to raise the truck up to 100mm from its existing height

Thoughts?

 

20191015_130420.thumb.jpg.22c769a501f4fbc251aad472c1691bc3.jpg

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