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Hyperblade's KP61 Racecar "KP61R" Discussion


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Just now, Roman said:

Will be interesting to see how this fits height wise in a starlet engine bay.
Beams motor is annoying for tallness but K is a bit more again I believe.

But maybe not so bad with a 20 instead of a 24.
Hopefully works out well without too much trouble but my understanding is you'll probably need a sump made too.
I'm genuinely looking forward to an honest comparison of beams vs K motor in the same car, same dyno etc etc.
In terms of power, weight, how it drives, yada yada.
It's so hard to get genuinely comparative information without so many external contributing factors making a difference.
Is that the BMW box it's mated up to? 
Gonna be awesome :D

Your going to love what i'm going to post, I will go into detail on reasonings, differences, sizes etc I happen to have my spare BEAMS motor sitting the garage so easy for me to compare at the moment. S2000 AP1 box.

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34 minutes ago, Ashkellybarr said:

Good stuff :thumbleft:

i take it you stayed 2L and not 2.4 for class restrictions?

ill be keen to see what you do for the sump setup as I’ve seen a lot of videos where people have pressure drops on long corners and need to look at this my self

Yep, oiling is a big issue on the K20a made even worse when you turn them around as under braking all the oil goes up the cam chain area, I have a plan for that though.

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On 22/04/2020 at 21:46, Hyperblade said:

Yep, oiling is a big issue on the K20a made even worse when you turn them around as under braking all the oil goes up the cam chain area, I have a plan for that though.

I have seen the bolt in kit (maybe K miata or a lesser known brand) witch bolts to the oil pump to baffle this. Think I would still prefer something that’s sealed around the sump instead.

 

cant remember if it’s left or right turns but there’s some guys in the states on utube with a s14 that had huge issues turning one way on the track. Looked into it more and found a couple others saying the same thing.

that and their a tall motor with such a huge head on them so clearance is a factor too limiting sump mods

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Here’s the timing chain one 

https://tractuff.com/products/tractuff-oil-pump-baffle

theres some other “drop in” baffles but think I could just reengineer them my self for less.

 

Skip to 4.10 so you don’t need to listen to this turkey but they did a common drop in brand and still had huge issues.

https://youtu.be/7GMUaje9G34

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8 hours ago, Ashkellybarr said:

I have seen the bolt in kit (maybe K miata or a lesser known brand) witch bolts to the oil pump to baffle this. Think I would still prefer something that’s sealed around the sump instead.

 

cant remember if it’s left or right turns but there’s some guys in the states on utube with a s14 that had huge issues turning one way on the track. Looked into it more and found a couple others saying the same thing.

that and their a tall motor with such a huge head on them so clearance is a factor too limiting sump mods

 

8 hours ago, Ashkellybarr said:

Here’s the timing chain one 

https://tractuff.com/products/tractuff-oil-pump-baffle

theres some other “drop in” baffles but think I could just reengineer them my self for less.

 

Skip to 4.10 so you don’t need to listen to this turkey but they did a common drop in brand and still had huge issues.

https://youtu.be/7GMUaje9G34

Yep, had seen those, I will be doing custom sump baffles.

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"but it also allows me to run escort style anti dive bars (tied from bottom arms BACK to chassis), which make a huge difference in braking."

Aahhh man I've been thinking about this for a while as well, it seems dumb that it has "dive" built into the braking, but I couldnt figure out how to make it better without lowering the chassis end of the bars lower than the LCAs which seems silly. 

Mounting them back to front makes a whole heap of sense! 

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13 hours ago, Roman said:

"but it also allows me to run escort style anti dive bars (tied from bottom arms BACK to chassis), which make a huge difference in braking."

Aahhh man I've been thinking about this for a while as well, it seems dumb that it has "dive" built into the braking, but I couldnt figure out how to make it better without lowering the chassis end of the bars lower than the LCAs which seems silly. 

Mounting them back to front makes a whole heap of sense! 

I was running the front sway bar (which does the castor on the lower arms) 25mm lower, this is the easiest way to reduce the diving as it reduces the leverage, it's relatively easy to do as you can see below, so doesn't have to be a massive amount, any little bit will help.

image.png.7f85ff626d02e48eead14cf2dd37087b.png

For me as I'm moving to a front rack it makes sense to move to the escort style anti dive, but otherwise the above worked well.

 

10 hours ago, johnnyizegem said:

20190828-183519.jpg

these also do exist but rather expensive...

is from a friends norma race car

Yep, dry sump was considered but just too pricey, a single stage wet sump is also an option, but the pulley is really expensive for it.

However the only dry sump i saw with the correct mounting was the AT Power one, all the others appeared to having the same problems as the other pans.

image.png.3367c69b9769f8fbdbbaf0b11cdf984e.png

vs Daily Engineering one.

image.png.e4c5922952914ac6184d2df7fe046008.png

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Converting to compression struts is a cool idea. What are your plans for the lower arms and steering knuckles? 

14 hours ago, Roman said:

it seems dumb that it has "dive" built into the braking

True, but you don't want to remove all dive from the braking, otherwise all of the dive energy goes through the geometry and not the springs. Most things I've read say to go for a maximum of 80% anti dive to retain good driver feedback under brakes. 

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I don't know all the details, but came out of a norma race car and was mugen spec. And somehow I recall him saying it was made a 2.1 instead of a 2.0. Has a lot of goodies inside. He wrecked one aswell by putting in the wrong valve springs and then hit the valves at high rpm.

It's this car

norma-m20-fc-qm-development-156128.jpg

I know the part between the drysump and the alternator in the previous pic was the engine mount, fix to the chassis, no rubbers or damping.

And yes, expensive, I think I remember him saying the drysump part was 1800euro if I am not mistaking. He was looking to build a spare engine at that time.

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4 hours ago, Truenotch said:

Converting to compression struts is a cool idea. What are your plans for the lower arms and steering knuckles? 

No plans at this stage, will see how we go when we get to it, the steering arms are T3 so have a bigger center, so i'm sure we will work something out.

Just now, johnnyizegem said:

I don't know all the details, but came out of a norma race car and was mugen spec. And somehow I recall him saying it was made a 2.1 instead of a 2.0. Has a lot of goodies inside. He wrecked one aswell by putting in the wrong valve springs and then hit the valves at high rpm.

It's this car

 

I know the part between the drysump and the alternator in the previous pic was the engine mount, fix to the chassis, no rubbers or damping.

And yes, expensive, I think I remember him saying the drysump part was 1800euro if I am not mistaking. He was looking to build a spare engine at that time.

Ouch, that's an expensive mistake!

Yeah it's not just the pans, but the pump, container and fittings. And because it's all over $1000 you get stung with GST + Duty importing it, so your looking at upwards of $5000nz to do.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for your efforts, really interesting results! 

I'm not sure if I'm surprised or not about the weight difference.
25+kg is one hell of a lot of weight when you think about how to actually remove that from an engine while maintaining its usual functionality.
But I was kind of expecting more based on completely useless information from the internet.
But then I also wasnt going to be surprised if they were almost the same. 
The result that's half way in between my expectations has caught me off gaurd haha.

I could see a few things bringing the difference closer, like the beams motor has the fancy 2 piece sump where is the K motor needs some extra additions to the standard one.
But then, a few things can increase the gap too like EWP being lighter than the stupid big K waterpump and being conscious of weight while building it this time around.

What is a safe rpm you can take a standard K motor to? Close to 9k? 
 

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5 minutes ago, Roman said:

Thanks for your efforts, really interesting results! 

I'm not sure if I'm surprised or not about the weight difference.
25+kg is one hell of a lot of weight when you think about how to actually remove that from an engine while maintaining its usual functionality.
But I was kind of expecting more based on completely useless information from the internet.
But then I also wasnt going to be surprised if they were almost the same. 
The result that's half way in between my expectations has caught me off gaurd haha.

I could see a few things bringing the difference closer, like the beams motor has the fancy 2 piece sump where is the K motor needs some extra additions to the standard one.
But then, a few things can increase the gap too like EWP being lighter than the stupid big K waterpump and being conscious of weight while building it this time around.

What is a safe rpm you can take a standard K motor to? Close to 9k? 
 

Stock redline is 8500/9k in my daily euro r so I imagine with springs and a bit less weight it'll be happy at 9 all day

This is a fun motor in a heavy accord. It should be amazing in a light starlet! 

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14 hours ago, Roman said:

Thanks for your efforts, really interesting results! 

I'm not sure if I'm surprised or not about the weight difference.
25+kg is one hell of a lot of weight when you think about how to actually remove that from an engine while maintaining its usual functionality.
But I was kind of expecting more based on completely useless information from the internet.
But then I also wasnt going to be surprised if they were almost the same. 
The result that's half way in between my expectations has caught me off gaurd haha.

I could see a few things bringing the difference closer, like the beams motor has the fancy 2 piece sump where is the K motor needs some extra additions to the standard one.
But then, a few things can increase the gap too like EWP being lighter than the stupid big K waterpump and being conscious of weight while building it this time around.

What is a safe rpm you can take a standard K motor to? Close to 9k? 
 

That comparison to the BEAMS included the EWP in it. So K20 weight is as I'm going to put it in.

I'm also in two minds, it's not as much as I thought, but than again we are talking about 2 very similar motors and one is 20kg lighter than the other, yes its aluminium but that doesn't account for all the weight loss, if you tried to take 20kg out of the beams you would struggle. They are also only a 4 cylinder not a 8 so a lot less to remove.

Also need to be careful as the BEAMS weight included a light weight alternator setup, and I can't remember If I included the starter or not, so if not than it's another 5kg on top.

So overall I'm happy with that gain, will try and make a lighter exhaust which will help the difference.

  • Integra is 8400 red line, and 8600 rev limit.
  • accord euro R is 8400 rev limit

Since the Euro R is same cams/valves etc I will be safe to run up to 8600 at least.

Stock oil pump can cause issues, but that won't be a problem for me, issues is normally rods from what I've seen, A lot of people mis shift (especially with 6 speed box) and overrev and than destroy the engine, where as the B16/B18 are a bit more forgiving.

 

13 hours ago, chris r said:

Stock redline is 8500/9k in my daily euro r so I imagine with springs and a bit less weight it'll be happy at 9 all day

This is a fun motor in a heavy accord. It should be amazing in a light starlet! 

Won't be touching the internals so will be keeping the rev limit stock.

I'm hoping it matches my expectations!

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If its anything like my stock B18cr civic it loves the high rpm, if I'm coming up to a corner and it's not quite worth the upshift I'll just sit it right up the top of rev range.. The most I have seen on the datalogs is 9200rpm with the limiter set at 8750, it's pretty easy to brush the limiter when you are trying to squeeze the best out of the little n/a..

Although fitting a sequential shift light (if you haven't got one already) has reduced this and makes for one less thing to think about... 

I guy I race with ran the f20c gearbox in his escort and did mention some mis-shift problems, he has since gone a $$ sequential quaife.. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hey, 

Another thought, it is pretty common to cook Honda voltage regulators at sustained high rpm. (ask me how I know this) 

 

I see you have some sort of aftermarket pulley, if possible I would suggest going larger diameter on the alternator to slow it down. 

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On 10/05/2020 at 15:55, mjrstar said:

If its anything like my stock B18cr civic it loves the high rpm, if I'm coming up to a corner and it's not quite worth the upshift I'll just sit it right up the top of rev range.. The most I have seen on the datalogs is 9200rpm with the limiter set at 8750, it's pretty easy to brush the limiter when you are trying to squeeze the best out of the little n/a..

Although fitting a sequential shift light (if you haven't got one already) has reduced this and makes for one less thing to think about... 

I guy I race with ran the f20c gearbox in his escort and did mention some mis-shift problems, he has since gone a $$ sequential quaife.. 

The B16 and B18 have stronger internals and can take those revs, the K20's have weak rods (well designed right to the required limit), so if you miss a gear your stuffed, one guy here did it and the rod let go and block + head were destroyed on a stock K20 he is now going forged internals just to stop it being an engine destroying event.

Yep I run a shift light, frequency of flashes changes as it gets closer to rev limit. I also set it differently for each gear i.e 1,2 comes in 500rpm before limit, while 5,6 are 200 rpm, the link makes it easy.

Trying to stay away from sequential, it's just the start of your problems if you go that way.

9 hours ago, mjrstar said:

Hey, 

Another thought, it is pretty common to cook Honda voltage regulators at sustained high rpm. (ask me how I know this) 

 

I see you have some sort of aftermarket pulley, if possible I would suggest going larger diameter on the alternator to slow it down. 

The pulley came with the water block kit, I think it was slightly bigger but not by much, thanks for the heads up, will see how it goes, if i keep blowing them then will have to look at options, maybe putting the K20 one back on.

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"Number one cylinder is on centerline of strut towers" 

Living the dream haha. :D

From memory an SW20 has a front mounted steering rack. But hard to find a rack without PS. But might be an option if you get stuck with others.

 

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