Filling in ports/intake runners...

[Roman]

Okay basically, my new intake manifold is a bit more shit than I would have hoped.

It's a casting of the TRD quad throttle manifold for 3S.

With blacktop 4age throttle bodies, and some 110mm long trumpets.

Problem being that it's approx 80mm across at the bellmouth, tapers down to 50mm onto the front face of blacktop throttle, tapers down to 45mm at throttle plate (all is well until this point)

but then tapers back out to a ~48mm egg sorta shape at bottom of blacktop throttle, and then the same sort of shape on the mating face of the TRD manifold, but it's not a perfect match, most likely because the casting is shitty.

So there's a few areas where there's a small 'lip'.

And where the manifold bolts to the head, my port is approx 49x40 rounded, where as the manifold has a port size of 53x43mm. So too bloody big! Sucks.

So anyway, plan is to back fill both the blacktop throttles from the throttle plate onwards, and the cast aluminium manifold that bolts to the head, and grind them back out to a new shape to suit the ports.

So my question is...

Am I better having a straight 45mm runner from the throttle plate onwards, and then a quick flare out to 49x40 port shape, or a taper inwards from 45mm and then a flare outwards, or a gradual flare outwards from 45mm round to the 49x40?

I know that theoretically you want a taper inwards right up to the port, but obviously since the port has more cross sectional area than the intake runners, it's not really possible.

Also, my main question *cough*

What can I use to backfill the manifold/throttles?

I hear people use some sort of epoxy... I obviously dont want bits of... whatever being vibrated loose and sucked into my motor, but obviously there's something that people use that works well.

Any suggestions/advice appreciated, will go back to standard manifold if I cant make these bloody things work well.

[Mike-e]

pics plz

[Roman]

Excuse the mess....

[Spencer]

ok pretty much throw that manifold away sounds like an abortion. Theres a couple high hp beams on the e-nets most bore out the black or siler top throttles (they can go out heaps) then make a nice taper manifold to the port. Other wise your probably going to loose hp with that thing you've got

[Roman]

The 270hp TRD engine uses standard unmodified blacktop 4age throttle bodies.... Mounted onto a manifold exactly like my one. (But of slightly better quality, as machined intsead of cast.... But costs $2000 or something stupid)

And doesnt taper to the head, it's exactly like my one, except the casting is a little off.

These people you speak of making big HP with bored out blacktop or silvertop throttles, guess what, they use them with THIS manifold.

The problem is not as bad as I make it sound, the 'lip' is probably half a mm or so.

I'm thinking that having it flare out to a larger diameter after the throttle body might be for the sake of stabilising the flow into the motor, or... something.

[forced]

Why don't you make the ports in the head a bit bigger?

[Roman]

haha, they're already pretty huge for the size of the motor, and have already been ported somewhat, while the motor was in Japan.

When I had the motor at Lynn Rogers, he wanted to know who did it, because he thought it was a pretty good job... So I'm not gonna touch that at all.

But irrespective of all of this, my question(s) still stand.

Anyone done anything similar before? With regards to what shape to make the runners, what material to use to fill it in, etc etc.

To get an idea of what it looks like in cross section versus the length, here's a quick autocad sketch.

P.S. The standard intake runner doesnt give any useful hints as to what's best... It's just a straight 45mm pipe, with an uprupt transition to the bottom part of the manifold, which is the shape of the port. Doesnt exactly seem like "The ultimate" if you know what I mean... But I'm Just being pedantic/picky/etc I guess.

[Guest vvega]

hey roman...lub's bro

[Spencer]

And doesnt taper to the head, it's exactly like my one, except the casting is a little off.

na the one on toymods making 188kw at the wheels is custom with big throttles to get some taper. All I was getting at mate is that why start with an inferior manifold that flares out and you need to reduce it. Its common place on na touring cars to have a taper manifold and its not hard to make something up. On such a sweet motor like a beams why stick something shit on, the port design on these is awesome deserves a bangin manifold

what revs were those other beams making there beans? love mean na motors

[Roman]

And doesnt taper to the head, it's exactly like my one, except the casting is a little off.

na the one on toymods making 188kw at the wheels is custom with big throttles to get some taper.

Glenn makes his throttle bodies like this.

He strips down silvertop 4age throttles, and recasts the throttle body to either 45,47,48, or 50mm. Fits all of the linkages back on with a new throttle plate to suit.

Then sticks this on the end of a manifold, like the one I've got. Even if there's a 50mm throttle body on, it's still going to 'flare out' to the port, because the cross sectional area of the port is approx 49x40 rounded, still more than 50mm worth of cross sectional area....

I know how he makes them, because I've probably sold him 2 dozen sets of 4age throttles over the last few years. He grinds out the manifold to suit larger throttles if/when he uses them.

All I was getting at mate is that why start with an inferior manifold that flares out and you need to reduce it. Its common place on na touring cars to have a taper manifold and its not hard to make something up. On such a sweet motor like a beams why stick something shit on, the port design on these is awesome deserves a bangin manifold

Okay so lets say I make a new manifold... How am I going to make it taper anyway? If I use two flanges and pipes, I'm going to have to diegrind and/or backfill it anyway to make it 'right'.

Machining a solid block of alloy or getting something cast is neither more affordable or less work.

I dont see how it's more logical to start again from scratch, than to add 1 or 2mm worth of material in some places, and remove probably... 1/2 a mm in other places.

what revs were those other beams making there beans? love mean na motors

Yeah same, built up NA motors are cool.

TRD motor comes on song at about 5000 or 5500rpm, but has really shit bottom end, VVTI disabled etc. Revs to about 8800 or so from memory.

Glenns setup uses dual staged injectors, VVTI, slightly different cams, lightened crank, etc etc and it's got a much broader powerband, still idles like a street car apparently, and good pull from about 3000.

Mine's fairly ordinary, just .5mm oversized pistons, balanced bottom end, ported head, and maybe quads.

[Spencer]

Glenn makes his throttle bodies like this.

He strips down silvertop 4age throttles, and recasts the throttle body to either 45,47,48, or 50mm. Fits all of the linkages back on with a new throttle plate to suit.

you sure he doesn't bore them? you can take them out alot without going to the effort of re casting?

Okay so lets say I make a new manifold... How am I going to make it taper anyway? If I use two flanges and pipes, I'm going to have to diegrind and/or backfill it anyway to make it 'right'.

Machining a solid block of alloy or getting something cast is neither more affordable or less work.

I dont see how it's more logical to start again from scratch, than to add 1 or 2mm worth of material in some places, and remove probably... 1/2 a mm in other places.

to be honest I'd give wayne a $6-800 bit of billet and a hug and make perfect. You say you didnt want to epoxy it so how are you going to solve your problem? and what did you pay for this piece? You can do a taper with two flanges and pipe just requires some epic folding or cutting and joining two bits of pipe or cutting your taper into abit of solid bar. I dont know dude just sounds like a gay manifold probably better with the stocker sure they work on some high hp cars but you know its not ideal. also this beams is fucking epic

gotta wait for abit before he goes nuts

[Guest vvega]

needs to rev higher

[Roman]

You say you didnt want to epoxy it so how are you going to solve your problem?

I just wanna know how to add material to this manifold, in a 'safe' way.

If no has any suggestions apart from 'throw it away', then that's fine.

/end thread.

[Spencer]

^ cant say with out a pic but you can probably get it welded up and then smooth it back boe if you can get the tip in there. Could end up a mess though

[kpr]

devcon like the rotary guys use, if it can last awhile in that situation. surely it will be ok in an inlet manifold if done right. if its 360 degree around the runner and has a decent surface it grab onto. should be ok

only other way would be welding it as spencer said. but would be pretty hard to get in there with a welder.

show us some pics

[eke_zetec_RWD]

epoxy resin will be sweet as. mix it up and let it go sticky then shove it in the places u want in generous ammounts. grind sand to suit day after.

use the epoxy used with carbon fibre. it wont come off a properly prepared surface.

fark iv used firberglass bog in plastic manifolds swt as.

[forced]

So long as you don't get fuel on it.

[pies]

So long as you don't get fuel on it.

yo mama has fuel on her

where fuel = philboe

[sentra]

whye u written off getting it welded, repair welders have allsorts of oddball machinary just for fixing odball things like this

they fix the impossible every day, there experts at it even

it could be really simple and cheap

but youl never know till you ask.

lots of manlove to repair welders

[drftnmaz]

i would get it welded or port head more.... devcon seems to be the one, saw mate using it to make P ports on 13B and i was skeptecial but it worked mint, all the products ive tryed like metalset are porus and when they get some fuel onto/into them they start to seperate from the surface they were on, this was on s/s and it sweats so that might have been why?