Diesel Mechanic Help please.

[KKtrips]

Mr diesel man - a little history for you.

My little Citroen diesel has been getting a little hard to start for a couple of months, I knew I had a battery on it's way out so was blaming that but stubbornly and stupidly not doing anything about it.

Then 2 weeks ago on a very very cold morning I went out to the car and spun her over and it was hard to start as it had been the previous couple of months so no alarm bells went off.
I threw my bags in the back and drove 10 metres down the driveway before going on the road but when I pushed the clutch in the little bugger stalled.
I tried to start it again but my "on the way out" battery foiled me and left me completely.

I bit the bullet and called the AA to come give me a jumpstart and resolved to buy a brand new battery straight away.
AA turned up, jump cables on and I went crank a crank a crank - but no brum. Double glowed it and crank a crank a but zilch still.
Chucked some ether down the tube and crank a crank a brum a sputter sputter sputter till finally a brum brum BRUM! Success!

High 5'ed the AA man and drove down the road to purchase a brand new battery with all the CCA's in the world.
The rest of the weekend of driving it was OK but it seemed to be even more of a pig to start when it was cold than it had ever been.
It was almost like the glow plugs had totally given up the ghost when the AA turned up - but at least I had the CCA to get it to crank long enough to fire.

Now because it's been a real pig to start and I suspect the glow plugs then I decided I'm going to change those.
I've been trying to find time but have been busy pretty much non-stop with work and property stuff and when I have had free time it's been out of town for the weekends.

The last 2 days it began noticeably surging over 3/4 throttle or more but not bad enough to warrant a look under the bonnet and thought I'd take a geeze when smashing in glow plugs soon.

 

TLDR? - this paragraph is the crux of the issue
This morning was no better or worse to start than as of late but still a cunt, however when I hit the road it straight away started surging worse than ever and to top it off it wanted to stall every time I put the clutch in. I managed to keep the revs up with a combination of heel/toe and coming to a full stop with the handbrake. But then when the engine warmed up she was all good other than the minor surging.

So I now have symptoms of hard starting, surging all the time and stalling when cold. Does this sound like water in the fuel or an air ingestion into the fuel lines?
FWIW - the worst times have seemingly coincided when the weather has been really shitty with borderline frost.

I'm thinking I'll get some fuel conditioner and water mixer to throw in the tank and also replace the fuel filter but would like an opinion from one of you diesel mechanic types out there before I go throwing money at it in case it is something common and I should be looking elsewhere.

It's confusing because the moment it all started going really wrong was when the AA man threw some ether down it's throat.

Just so I don't seem like a completely lazy asshole, I have just been out at lunchtime and looked under the bonnet but couldn't see any sign of a fuel leak or any obvious sites of air ingestion and when I opened the water drain it looked like diesel only coming out.


Cheers heaps for any help or guidance.

KK

[Yowzer]

Get some Fuel Set from BNT, that shit is great. Wack a full dose in the tank, and wack a bit straight in the new fuel filter when you change it too.

What year is it? EFI, common rail? If it's OBD hook a scan tool up to it and check codes, MAF sensors (if it has one) like to fail or get dirty and read all up the shit which will cause shitty fueling issues.

EGR systems also foul up and cause shit. Threebond makes those intake sprays that clean the crud out.

[KKtrips]

Nah she is a 1998. Mech pump and run of the mill Bosch injection.

 

Fuel Set you say - I like the sound of that for ease plus I get good deals from BnT.

[Yowzer]

Ah OK. Check the filter for deez bug too. The fuel set will kill it off if it's there but you'll still need to blast the lines out.

[KKtrips]

Fuck I'll be gutted if it's diesel bug. I try to only ever fill up from big servos.

 

Edit - I just realised I did chuck in a splash of diesel in some 'Naki hick-town about 4 weeks ago though - fuck....  

[Shaz]

If you're worried about diesel snot, do you want me to bring you a bottle of that Wynn's diesel treatment snake oil tonight since I'm coming straight from work?

[japawagons]

Sounds similar to the symptoms you get with air leaks, I have had this a few times on things like Navara's, once they warm up they're mint, the fuel lines go hard and brittle and open up around fittings and suck air instead of fuel. Being a Citroen it probably has that weird plastic supply hose. Try hand priming it if it still has one of those squeeze pumps before starting it next and see whether that makes a difference.

 

But the surging over 3/4 Throttle doesn't really coincide with this thought, I am also not a diesel mechanic.

[KKtrips]

If you're worried about diesel snot, do you want me to bring you a bottle of that Wynn's diesel treatment snake oil tonight since I'm coming straight from work?

 

Thanks bud but I've already ordered some of the stuff Yowzer recommended and grabbing it on my way home tonight.

 

In my mind I think it is deeper than diesel bug but I'm going to give it a dose anyhow because it can't hurt.

[CaMpylobacter]

doesn't sound like bug if it runs dope once it's sorted itself out. 

 

has it still got the stock PSA outborad motor style bleed pump?

 

like this. I know it say lucas but the bosch ones have these too AFAIK. they're pooze. 

ditch all that shit and get a filter head from a hiace/hilux/estima diesel (z252x) or a mitsi L200/L300 (z271) and it'll be mint and cheaper filters too. that plus some new rubber lines will see it fairly well sorted I reckon. 

Not many people service the fuel fitlers on diesels nearly enough either. we have pooze diesel and you should really do them every 10-15k

 

 

IMO it sounds like air ingress and when it's sitting (esp depending on which direction it's facing - up or downhill) it's letting air into the fuel lines and when you try to fire it up it has to suck the air bubble out through the lift pump before it'll chooch you any deez out your squirters. 

When you were trying to fire it up at my pad the other day when I was puking my brains out I was thinking  'holy shit that thing's got a guts full of air' as it wound and wound for ages lolz. You'll know if it's not firing due to shitty glow plugs coz it'll chooch a huge white cloud while you're cranking. 

it probably wouldn't hurt to chuck a fuel treatment through it too.

If you gassed up at the diesel pump in stratford you'll be sweet. 

[KKtrips]

Yeah it definitely gets better as it warms up so I'm doubting the bug too cos you would think that would do nothing but get worse - fast.

 

Also yes it's still got the outboard style pump - but I think I actually have a toyota spec filter head from my BX - I should adapt that in like you say.

FWIW - I changed the internal style f/filter when I serviced it about 6 months ago. So should still be legit but I've ordered a new one of those overnight anyhow. 

 

I haven't seen no chooching of white clouds when cranking - just an obligatory (but decent) puff of grey smoke when it does fire up.

But it is hard to watch the tailpipe while in the drivers seat. LOL

 

I'll try parking it facing downhill overnight and see if it makes a difference.

Something tells me I would have noticed that making a difference though because I vary uphill/downhill parking angle fairly regularly - mostly depending on how lazy I am when I get home.

 

Can't remember exactly where it was but I gassed up somewhere between Stratford and Wanganui (but not Hawera) so it definitely a bit of small town fill up - regretting that decision quite badly right now. 

 

Fuel treatment is definitely happening tonight after work and I'll try to give it a decent run. Probably won't get another chance to drive it before Monday cos I'm flying to the 'tron tomorrow.

 

Will also give it a bit more of an eyeball for spots where air can get in. But that's probably needle in a haystack spec. Gah.

The thing that really confounds me is the fact it now takes probably 2-3 times longer to start than it did IMMEDIATELY before the battery got frigged - like even the morning when I replaced the battery it was not bad but when I stopped at the shops 5 minutes after fitting the battery it felt a bit of a cunt to start then but I discounted it in my mind.

It's not too much of a stretch of the imagination to believe they are related in some curly way - or it being a wild coincidence.

Ho-hum - no easy answers suck. LOL

[CaMpylobacter]

check the glowplugs are getting power! could've popped a slowblow fuse type thing or something. 

also, check all your earths and cleanliness/tighness of your positive leads in case the pump fuel cutoff solenoid isn't getting a good voltage when cranking. 

 

 

usually when you get air in the system, when it finally starts they will sometimes blow heaps of white smoke and miss and fart around etc but not all vehicles are the same.

if it's getting a good supply of fuel/enough to fire the injectors whilst cranking for like 10 seconds or so (pointing to a glowplug fault/nothing to do with pump electrics or fuelling) then it'll chooch a huge cloud of very grey/white when it finally fires up. smoke isn't the best way to diagnose a starting fault though i guess. 

checked your air filter lately? maybe unrelated but it might be trying to suck itself inside out and starving the old girl a bit. 

 

 

as always, back to basics. fuel treatment, check all connections & fit your new glow plugs, then new filter/fit that other filter head and new rubber lines. all else fails then fuel pump/compression. hah.

 

during the commute, do you nana it hardout or do you give it some beeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnsssssss?? diesels love getting some decent heat into them and I've often noticed on the diesels I've owned that they get pretty yuck (esp precomp spec) if you drive them like an old woman. need some badass WOT chooch up the ngauranga and shit. 

[KKtrips]

check the glowplugs are getting power! could've popped a slowblow fuse type thing or something. 

also, check all your earths and cleanliness/tighness of your positive leads in case the pump fuel cutoff solenoid isn't getting a good voltage when cranking.

Good idea!!!!

checked your air filter lately? maybe unrelated but it might be trying to suck itself inside out and starving the old girl a bit.

Clean that pretty regularly.

 

during the commute, do you nana it hardout or do you give it some beeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnsssssss?? diesels love getting some decent heat into them and I've often noticed on the diesels I've owned that they get pretty yuck (esp precomp spec) if you drive them like an old woman. need some badass WOT chooch up the ngauranga and shit.

I don't fang it like Fangio but I ain't no old nana in my commute either. Pretty standard driving and I get the Maupuia hill to haul ass up at the end of each day and weekly workout on Brooklyn hill. Plus a fairly regular tripper up Ngaio gorge. So I wouldn't consider my driving as being sedate but definitely not thrashing spec either.

[CaMpylobacter]

^ good man. driving it like it's meant to I guess  

long as you're not just chooching round in high gear carboning everythign up. it'd have to be pretty bad to make it that had to start 

[ajg193]

Sounds like your car is a lemon........

 

 

 

Anywho, back on topic. I have been told that using that ether crap is really bad for the engine? Apparently they get addicted to it after it damages them.

[CaMpylobacter]

ether? ether aint good for nothin'. 

[vivaspeed]

French AND diesel.  Bound to go wrong.

 

Should have bought a Toyota.

 

Not helpful at all, sorry.

[CaMpylobacter]

french clocked diesels ages ago maaaate. 

[Beaver]

yep yep righto. on topic fellas.

[Ranter]

Can you get at the injector pipes easily? When you have time crack those and bleed it before a cold start, easy way to rule out air leaks if it then starts and runs easily. Not that familiar with the French diesels as mentioned they are normally solid but some of the Jap stuff get air in through a front seal on the pump and show similar symptoms until they won't start at all without a bleed.

[KKtrips]

So after work yesterday I opened the bonnet and pumped up the squeezy bulb.

First pump felt a bit airy but from the second pump on it felt alright, it only took 4 or 5 pumps for it to get firm.

It then started easier than it has been so was quite happy about that.

I drove straight to the local BnT and grabbed a bottle of Fuel Set then threw in a hefty dose in the carpark and took it for a drive.

Not sure if placebo or it did something but it definitely felt like it drove nicer last night.

This morning I was full of hope and dreams but alas it was a pig to start again.

However it idled OK while I was putting my seatbelt on but as soon as I set off down the road it started dicking around either stalling altogether or idling around 400rpm (normally about 800rpm) although again once it warmed up it behaved.

Worst part of the trip was the motherfucker stalled (when it was still cold) just as I started entering a big roundabout at the bottom of the airport and then was a right cunt to start. Luckily traffic was not bad at the time I was there and I got it going again trying to keep the idle high.

I note the surging was not as severe down low but if I revved it up above 3800rpm the power was like hitting a soft governor with it surging in and out.

Monday morning I am going to try pumping up the fuel again before starting and see if that helps. Starting to lean towards air ingress into the fuel lines.