0R10N Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 sup tech talkers! after throwing hunnerds and hunnerds of simoleons at pro tuners I have still failed to extract an optimal amount of power from my B6T engine which nowe runs a Link aftermarket EMS. the issue is a giant lack of power above 4000rpm and no amount of tweaking of the fuel curve nor boost levels has helped in any way. Now I'm by no means a whiz at engines or anything like that but it almost seems like there's still a lot of playing around left to do with regards to the ignition curve, via process of elimination, seat of the pants feelings and all that given that I'm already dumping a shitload of fuel and boost down its throat. So I did a bit of thinking and realized that the B6T is one of those engines which has both mechanical AND vacuum ignition timing advance via the standard distributor. And the first thing that gets turfed when upgrading to say, a Link, is the distributor, in favour of a CAS which is statically timed as far as I'm aware. my question is, would knowing the factory advance rates and then plugging them into the Link tune be of any use at all, or is there already some form of advance program in the ECU that is automagically applying the correction for me? I have a Link G1 V5 if that's any help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KKtrips Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Get a timing light and see what it is advancing up to - I would say a turbo car would max out at 28ish degrees all in and should idle with 6-10ish. (non turbos are 30-34 all in) PS - Vacuum advance is only for economy anyway so you can ignore that side of it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuel Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 has the ECU even been tuned by someone yet? there should be ignition curve tables which the tuner would tweak also, not just the fuel and boost etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0R10N Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 has the ECU even been tuned by someone yet? there should be ignition curve tables which the tuner would tweak also, not just the fuel and boost etc. Yeth. Glenn (ezy10s) had a crack at it, then Kent from Speedsource. Both had trouble with the ignition curves, Kent went so far as to say that he didn't have enough experience with Mazdas to know exactly how to optimize the timing. So we got it to 200ps and left it at that, but it really does hit a giant brick wall at 4000rpm compared to when it was running standard management. Get a timing light and see what it is advancing up to - I would say a turbo car would max out at 28ish degrees all in and should idle with 6-10ish. (non turbos are 30-34 all in) sweet, i'll use my BFMR project car for this exercise once it's all up and running. The factory setting is 12° BTDC ±1 with the vacuum advance disconnected. Don't think the stock management is smart enough to factor boost or throttle position. chances are the timing values that were programmed into the Link are well below the 'standard' curve. Maybe there's something in my giant orange Mazda shop manual, I'll dust it off and have a read tonite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eke_zetec_RWD Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 all mechanical AND vacuum ignition timing should be locked up. so either drill and bolt or weld up. wheights can be removed etc. then its up to the tuner to tune the ignition timing. most tuners with 4x4 dynos will be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuel Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 he's gone from dizzy to wasted spark coil packs and a CAS so the mechanical timing should now be fixed/locked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eke_zetec_RWD Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 ohh ok i see, i read better second time. baiscally you tune the fuel with safe timing then you do timing. advancing untill untill power stops increasing or knock (in which case reduce) what power? what turbo? what boost? and is it holding boost at high rpm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookie Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 The cam timing hasn't been altered has it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CXGPWR Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 Depending on how the link is set up orignally with its base timing that may need to be corrected. The ignition map should have been done when it was on the dyno, but its not hard to have a quick look at what your map is set up with. I have timing light etc so am happy to lend a hand man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0R10N Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 Awesome John. Yeah I think I mentioned it to you briefly at Ricardo's the other nite. will flick you a txt sometime this week possibly, keep getting after hours jobs dumped into my lap unannounced, which means I don't end up getting home until past 7pm Cam timing is still the same. Max power reached was 195PS. Was originally tuned with a VF8 hybrid at 1.1 bar, but I've gone to a VF10 hybrid (has a smaller exhaust wheel compared to the VF8) since then. Currently trying to sort the boost control on the new turbo... peak is currently 0.8 bar, consistent right up to redline. To be fair I'm happy with roughly 200PS because it means less risk of shattering my gearbox to pieces, just that I would like to do it at a lower boost threshold, or failing that, make the car more responsive through the revs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjrstar Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 it could be something non ignition related which is stealing your horsepowers such as a restrictive exhaust etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drftnmaz Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 200ps is pretty much on the limit of a vf10 isn't it? needa goto a t28 to get to 250ps as said above, on the dyno you keep putting timing at it untill it stops making power or knocks, the tuner prob did this, and reached the limit of the vf10... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0R10N Posted September 19, 2011 Author Share Posted September 19, 2011 Hmm, others seem to have had better luck from their VF10+B6T setups. Even my old track car engine made 240PS with a VF10 and that pulled like a monster all the way to redline. but I guess every engine is different, and that one was a grenade anyway, lolol. Todd - it was tuned on the old VF8, so maybe I just have to scratch the current map and start over. I suppose the VF10 could be maxed out but it just doesn't 'feel' that way (suppose it's a matter of driving/sitting in it to get what I mean). Weird. oh one other thing, I don't have TPS input enabled on my Link, so let's say if I'm making 0.5 bar at half throttle, there is no difference to making 0.5 bar at WOT, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 If the tune was with the old tubro its pretty much your problem, go get a new tune. Even take up one of the GC's on here who has a wideband and sort a good roadtune out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaMpylobacter Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 no tps seems weird. I don't know shit about links though. joe's jag runs map and no tps and it's weird as shit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 tps is handy, but it will be tuned purely on MAP vs RPM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drftnmaz Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 different turbo will change the load points quite abit on map tuned engines, and will be using those map point to pick the timing... thought about talking to someone like neil airport, hes pretty mazda keen isn't he? your old engine may have had slightly higher compression from having the head planed at some point in its life, or may have had excessive timing causing it to feel good but grenade itself, its amazing how long the b6t's can last on a bad tune (lots of timing or lack of fueling) was that 240ps on the same dyno? did you get your boost situation sorted? sorta sounded like your gate was being held open a mm or two Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0R10N Posted November 24, 2011 Author Share Posted November 24, 2011 Thread bump to save cluttering up tech talk. Plus kinda related to topic anyway. a question for all you theorycrafters: Let's say I'm accelerating down a straight, flat piece of road in my TX3 at half throttle. According to my boost gauge the engine is seeing around 0.6 bar (or approx. 9psi) of boost and rising, however the car is not increasing in acceleration as revs and boost build. The "seat of pants" feeling could best be described as a large torque hole. is this likely to indicate suboptimal ignition timing? Further rumination: the acceleration feels the same as if I'd merely tootled down the road at partial throttle with the boost gauge reading 0.3 bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slacker.cam Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 what happens at full throttle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0R10N Posted November 24, 2011 Author Share Posted November 24, 2011 Cam, nothing stellar, to be fair. Like I said, the tune was originally hitting a brick wall above 4000rpm. with the new turbo it seems to be hitting a brick wall everywhere, doesn't matter what revs I'm doing. Todd may be right, different turbo = different load points, time for a retune. I now have a laptop with PCLink and can borrow the cables and other gear from Stephen, maybe I'll give it a crack myself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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