Opel Vectra Track Car

[Vintage Grumble]

This seems like a shit load of work for minimal gain (tho I aint read everything here properly) Is it really worth it?

[Spencer]

As said some form of external cooler setup with a pump could possibly overcome oiling issues. It would be pretty crackup running an upside down box

[mikuni]

probably already been mooted - but what about flipping/rotating the gearbox upside down to get the output where you want it? or will all the selector forks fall out or something?

Good suggestion. I have stumbled across people doing this while I've been researching and it can work. People do it sometimes with Audi boxes to reverse them to use in rear engine applications like Porches and aircooled VW's.

I think with a transverse gearbox is may not work as well. It would probably be more difficult to flip the gearbox upside down and bolt it to the engine, then you have to muck around with things like the selector and the breather/drain/oil level, and will still have issues with splash oiling or having to pump oil through it somehow. All in all, I think mating the Honda box up to it is probably easier and gives a few big advantages (cable shift, stroner LSD diff), while still theoretically being able to work, if perhaps a little weaker.

This seems like a shit load of work for minimal gain (tho I aint read everything here properly) Is it really worth it?

It's definitely not worth the effort. I'll probably end up just retaining the original engine configuration in the end, as it's just getting harder and harder. The main advantage of doing this now and the only reason I'm sticking with it is to get the engine up a bit higher and get the driveshafts at a decent angle so I can run the car super slammed. If I don't do this I'll still be able to slam the living shit out of it, but axles will be a consumable item, it they last at all.

[EURON8]

So where did we end up with the honda box? Richie picked you up a h22a(?) box right?

Is it going to work being turned around?

Driveshafts out the front?

Running it backwards?

I got a bit lost with all the pages of FWD discussion.

[mikuni]

Fair enough man, these "other project" threads are hard to follow with scattered updates and useful information over so many pages.

Richy dropped the box off last night and I dummied it up tonight. It looks vaguely do-able but there are a few issues. I'm getting a dummy block in the next few weeks (for free), so will drill some holes in that block to see if I can mate the box up to it. I can't afford the luxury of an adaptor plate due to space constraints, so have to modify either the block or the box to get them to fit. The Honda box looks a bit bigger also, so that could be a deal breaker. And I also need to figure out the best way to run hybrid axles between the Honda box and the Opel hubs.

Oh and the MRS idea doesn't really work, as they are the same setup as in a Corolla/Celica, just mid engine.

[EURON8]

I got a W40 with RX7 bell some years back.

Holes were drilled in bell to allow for holes in box.

Crude but it worked.

Could use vectra bell drilled to suit honda box.

Im sure (if needed) you could get some alloy block welded on the exterior for any holes that are outside the bell.

will draw MSpaint if required because that didnt make much sense to me either.

[Truenotch]

The bell will make up about half of the gearbox housing on any FWD box - they don't have a normal removable "bell" like a RWD.

[Spencer]

If you can get a couple of holes drilled that match the Opel engine (maybe with some bosses welded in to tidy it up) you could run a steel adapter plate to pick up a few more bolt locations. This is very dependant on how they line up! but it is done allot when upgrading autos in yank cars that dont have a removeable bellhousings (think TH400 conversions etc) two bolts line up and the rest are picked up by the sandwhich plate with captive nuts welded into it

May be able to tilt the gearbox and get the axles a fraction higher? depends how close they will be to the block I guess

[mikuni]

May be able to tilt the gearbox and get the axles a fraction higher? depends how close they will be to the block I guess

haha, pretty much both your suggestions are exactly what I'm doing. Particularly the second one, though I am slightly concerned about tilting the gearbox too much.

The Honda bellhousing is really tall, the top bolt holes line up quite far up the block, much higher than where it could bolt. But if I run the gearbox tilted backwards on the engine by about 30° it finds a fair bit of meat on the Opel block that I could drill out to put bolts in. The engine itself tilts forward by 7° which I want to retain, so the gearbox will end up tilting backwards by around 23°, which probably isn't too bad. It all lines up pretty awesomely and the diff output/axles run along about half way up the front of the block, which is perfect if I can make it work. Like I say though, still a few issues to work through!

And yeah Chris, the bellhousing includes the diff and isn't removable from the gearbox as simply as some RWD bells are. I've still considered trying to cut it away and adapt a RWD bellhousing on (which you can get for both motors) but this just isn't possible due to the diff.

I've also been talking to a guy who adapted a K series Toyota 5 speed onto a worked Vauxhall 1256 just by adding parts to the bellhousing and drilling it to suit. It worked well and looked really tidy, but even a worked 1256 is not going to stress alloy as much as a decent 2 litre will, so theres a chance this method could be a little weak.

[Truenotch]

The hardest part will be getting everything lined up correctly. Mucho measuring required.

[Spencer]

^ yea for sure, need a lush jig made using a old clutch centre then spin something up the bolts to the crank and marry the two together. Then drill some holes in the bell housing with your $20 XU1 drill and bolt it up

I would say the box will be fine at 23 degrees, it will be engineered that the splash lubrication works on an angle, will just be like its going up a never ending hill

Anyway I think this is a sweet endeavour, keep it up. Just need to flip that head around

[mikuni]

Exactly Markku, the alignment of the box was my biggest concern too. The guy I mentioned earlier who adapted a box onto another engine used a dummy housing with a layshaft going through into the crank spigot. I was planning to do similar but just by chance the input shaft seems to fit perfectly inside the crank spigot, similar to a RWD setup. I'll check this with vernier calipers to be sure, but if this is the case it makes things heaps easier.

Basically I just lifted the gearbox up, slotted it onto the crank and then rotated it with the help of a jack until things looked about how I think they should. I've even managed to slot a bolt in and using Spencers suggestion above, I think I could use 2 adaptor plates to get another 4 in there, which should be sufficient. Starter, flywheel and Honda clutch all look to fit also.

This is the quite extreme angle that the gearbox will sit on. As I said earlier, engine will lean 7° forward, the gearbox leans backwards but at quite an angle. It seems to work best as pictured, which is probably closer to 45° than the 30° I thought I might be able to get away with. Feedback?

I could probably lean the engine forward a little more, perhaps 10° to get the gearbox slightly closer to its original angle.

Driveshaft output is stupidly awesome. Not only do they now sit at the front of the block, they also sit about half way up. Even the intermediate shaft hanger should be relatively easy to adapt to the block as the old engine mount fixings are right there. The old driveshafts were basically at the bottom of the block, resulting in an extreme angle when the car is lowered.

Have also been working away on the inner guards. Its good stuff to learn on, but there are some tricky angles in there, so perhaps not quite as straight forward as I first thought.

And visited pick a part to get a number of items, none of which I walked away with. Instead I paid a stupidly exorbitant sum of money for some Toyota rear brakes that fit surprisingly well. The bolt spacing lines up with the rear beam on 2 bolts. I'm going to make up a spacer/adaptor plate to mount the rear hubs similar in an offset fashion. The 18" wheels allow me to get away with this offset and it is an easy way to get heaps of low but still retain some geometry in the beam (it cambers/casters too much with excess low).

[Spencer]

Sweet man driveshafts sitting there makes life so much easier, this is panning out nicely. Also good idea for the rear!

[Truenotch]

Looks similar to the angle my gearbox used to sit on . Only issue I can see would be lubrication for the ring and pinion - maybe experiment with over filling it by a litre or so?

[mjrstar]

looking good, I would anticipate a possible issue with burning of the driveshaft output seals if they are no subjected to the occasional dose of oil.. i reckon a simple pump/squirter setup might be worth looking into as Mr notch eluded to above the major splash lube for a FWD gearbox will tend to be from the CW & P..

also I am sure you would have already anticipated blocking off the factory breather location and fitting something at the new top of the gearbox.. but how will you go about draining the oil out? it could be worth looking into a suction tube with a fitting on it to drag the oil out like a lot of big machinery has?

Once again I am impressed with the lenghts you are going to in the pursuit of maximum low..

[Truenotch]

How about trying this as a mean-time alternative to spinning the head:

Gives a lot more clearance under the car and seems like there's enough space for a good air intake.

[glen]

s2000 rally cars run the same style headers.

[Spencer]

Yea Brad would have seen those pics/posted them in the touring car thread. That engine is fairly slammed in that engine bay using a dry sump and small sequential gearbox hence the airbox can fit over the rocker covers. I'm pretty sure they had problems with the airboxes/air inlet temps still being heated by the exhaust hence the head flipping came about. It would be rad to see that setup on this but if there is rooom under the car/gearbox I dont see much benefit? makes the engine bay allot hotter

[mikuni]

Haha yeah, I'm pretty sure I remember Markku commenting on that pic when I've posted it on here before - something along the lines of "RWD setup on a FWD"

It's awesome, but would be an absolute prick to pull off with a conventional gearbox, with the shifter and everything. I'll be burning linkages/cables most likely, even with a heat shield. I'll also be lifting the engine, rather than lowering it, so as Spence says I should have plenty of room under the engine for the exhaust.

I am thinking about doing a similar style intake and maybe taking air from the heater intake, which is meant to be a high pressure zone. I wonder if this would work. It would mean I'd be getting cool air without it passing through the engine bay/heaps of pipe work.

[xsspeed]

^What I am planning to do with the 3s in my ee80