treggos (ex keltik) baguette 405 build diary

[Spencer]

Nope, big wheels and slam haha, oh and stripping the living shit out of it

[DodgySam]

Did someone mention intake?

Thats my personal specialty!

I love to make well flowing intakes...they are so satisfying to make as they make sweet sounds, look sweet and have a noticable performance improvement.

A guy I used to work with was the intake engineer for the Arrows F1 team back in the day.

Cheap tip.

Get the intake air as close to 4degC as is possible.

Supposedly that is the optimum temp for oxygen:air ratio.

[Spencer]

The air intake on one of these is so simple with the intake ports at the front just do this

[KKtrips]

Shit son - you reckon Puggits have little weird things - try owning a Citroen..

[CaMpylobacter]

lewl. all the things that are weird usually stick out as being a good idea to me. I dunno. just seem a lot more refined than your average jap car of the same era. when you get to mod them though it perhaps becomes a hinderance at times.

I got 10fizz to chop me out some dcoe flanges. going to mash them on a stock manifold and put some dcoe tbs that i have on there. should be sweet. 405s are heaps easier to do intake to though coz you've got an extra foot of engine bay. a stock manifold sits right where my radiator needs to be..... and the exhaust hits the firewall. 20v has been done overseas a few times though so anythign is possible.

that gearbox chart doesn't show what cunts in the uk are ken for at the moment, it's quite old. a lot of the guys there seem to be fettling with the gear sets right now. there's a guy on a 205 board that does gearbox and engine builds on these for a living, there's so much demand.

I read somewhere yesterday that peugeot 406 front brakes bolt in (306 fit 205 so i guess they're lego betwen the series if you get the 'same' sized car). this is good because i think 406 coupe may be even larger. they run (again this is only what i've skim read) brembo 4 pots up front. perfect!

also 405s make me lol because they all had abs faults when new. instead of fixing them like all other manufacturers did, they just did a recall and ripped it all out.

can put lsd in these boxes. 205/405/306/309/bx boxes are all the same through the XU range, albeit for a couple of tiny ancillary differences, and of course ratios. makes for cheap box and a reasonable choice of ratio sets.

[mikuni]

Stolen from Eurosport;

Thought you'd be interested in this article:

Collectible Classic: 1989-1991 Peugeot 405Mi16

Ken Ramonet was minding his own business pumping 91-octane unleaded when I ran across a California Chevron station like a carjacker, except that carjackers rarely yell, "Oh my god, it's an Mi16!" It's hard to tell who was more mortified, my embarrassed friends or poor Ramonet, whom I scared half to death.

"This is the car that got the prime spot on my bedroom wall!" I exclaimed. "It won the 1988 European Car of the Year by the biggest margin ever! It was the car that was supposed to save Peugeot in America!" My friends scratched their heads. Like most Americans, they knew nothing about this handsome four-door sedan.

But Ramonet certainly knows what he has, something he proved beyond any doubt when he showed me the perfectly organized book of records and receipts that he keeps for his 167,000-mile 1991 405Mi16. Ramonet has bought and sold ten Peugeots, but he's keeping this particular French beauty for good.

Peugeot unveiled the 405 in 1987, and the compact sedan made its way to America a year later. Penned by Pininfarina, the simple, elegant lines ushered in a new styling era for Peugeot -- and if the French rarity seems more familiar than you'd expect, it's probably because the 1991-96 Infiniti G20 looked so similar. Of the two, the older Peugeot has aged more gracefully, but obviously looks aren't everything: you can buy a new Infiniti today, but Peugeot is long gone from our shores.

The 405 was supposed to stop that from happening. After winning just about every single new-car award in Europe, the 405 was to be the mainstream sedan that would teach America that expensive, high-maintenance French products were vastly superior to inexpensive, reliable, and well-built Japanese cars. Oh, those silly French people. When will they ever learn?

Well, actually, there's a clear answer to that question: August 6, 1991, the day that Peugeot joined French compatriots Citroen, Renault, and Simca and officially gave up on the U.S. car market. The 405 was the last new French car introduced here, and the Mi16 was the athlete of the lineup, with a boy-racer body kit that looks great even today. Contemporary road tests smothered the peugeot with praise for its exceptional chassis balance, comparing its handling to that of a rear-wheel-drive sport sedan -- or even a race car. Its steering was called every positive name in the book, and the driving position, pedal placement, and shifter were all lauded. Those are attributes largely shared with lesser 405 models -- the biggest differentiator for the Mi16 was its sixteen-valve engine.

In the 1980s, a 7000-rpm sixteen-valve four-cylinder was an exotic piece of machinery reserved for the performance elite. It's not much of a stretch to consider the Mi16 in the same league as the original BMW M3 or the Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.3-16. Sure, the 405 is front-wheel drive, but the Mi16's handling belied its layout, and the underhood screamer produced enough power -- more than Peugeot's own 2.8-liter V-6 -- to run with many of its six-cylinder competitors.

Displacing a modest 1.9 liters, the small four-cylinder is long on stroke but short on low-end torque -- both horsepower (150 at 6400 rpm) and torque (128 lb-ft at 5000 rpm) peak within two grand of the engine's lofty redline. At low revs, the lightweight, aluminum four-banger is remarkably smooth and quiet. As the tach needle nears the 5000-rpm mark, the long-as-a-baguette intake runners begin working their magic and the lion under the hood suddenly gets very, very angry. The guttural wail is accompanied by an impressive surge in power -- and enough vibration to rattle the 405's interior trim.

It's this Dr. Jekyll and Monsieur Le Hyde personality that makes the Mi16 such an interesting car to drive. The ride is supple, yet the body's motions are perfectly fluid even through bumpy corners. The poofy leather seats have laughably enormous bolsters, and yet they're as soft as lounge chairs.

The Mi16 feels solid and substantial, with an expansive greenhouse that affords very good all-around visibility. The seats are so high that the dash is at chest height. As a result, headroom is at a premium for tall drivers up front, but the rear seats are very spacious. So, too, is the trunk, which looks big enough to swallow a Renault Le Car. The Mi16 is light even by 1980s standards, with a curb weight of about 2700 pounds. Part of the credit goes to body panels so thin that there's a label warning not to push down to latch the hood, lest you dent it. How French.

It would be easy to romanticize the 405Mi16, since it was among the very last French cars imported into the United States, but, in hindsight, it is as good as everyone said it was. It took twenty-three years for this bedroom-poster hero to become a Collectible Classic, and when I finally got behind the wheel, I was not disappointed -- it was a rare meet-your-hero moment indeed. New York bureau chief Jamie Kitman wasn't surprised, as he and his parents each bought one new. "With the high-revving sixteen-valve engine, the 405Mi16 was possibly the most fun you could have in a passenger car at the time, with tenacious roadholding, a luxuriously loping ride, and the most uncorrupted steering feel this side of a Caterham 7. I loved it completely, except for the fact that it started to self-destruct after 50,000 miles. I'd bet money that there's not a really tight 405Mi16 left, but I wouldn't shy away from trying to find one." Kitman clearly needs to hang out at gas stations more often.

THE SPECS

ENGINE 1.9L DOHC I-4, 150 hp, 128 lb-ft

TRANSMISSION 5-speed manual

DRIVE Front-wheel

SUSPENSION, FRONT Strut-type, coil springs

SUSPENSION, REAR Trailing arms, torsion bars

BRAKES F/R Vented discs/discs

WEIGHT 2700 lb

THE INFO

YEARS PRODUCED 1989-1991

NUMBER sold Fewer than 5000 (U.S. market, est. about 25,000 were built worldwide during the same period.)

ORIGINAL PRICE $20,700

VALUE TODAY $1500-$6000

WHY BUY? The last high-performance French car exported to America, the 405Mi16 was a true driver's car with good looks and sports-car handling. Our favorite is the 1991 model, because it had fifteen-inch wheels (in place of the original fourteens), horn buttons on the steering wheel (instead of on the turn-signal stalk), and a climate-control system that wasn't on permanent strike. And because it's basically the youngest Peugeot you can buy here.

[keltik]

Good article, cheers for sharing. As tempting as it would be to shine it all up nice and pretty, im not going to. I do agree with most of the points in that article tho. It does drive oustandingly well.

[mikuni]

You're a fast reader.

[drtdvl]

re gear ratios: Keep the mi16 box!!!! then get 3rd 4th and 5th from a 1.6/1.9 (same ratio's) and put them in using the mi16 final drive. The 1.6 box was crap in my car, 1st was way way too short as was second. (mi16 and the 306 S16 (5speed) is the same box)

Ecu's - the 4wd model had a 7400 i think rev limit where as the 2wd models had a 7200 rev limit, PeterT in aussie does a drop in chip for the ecu which takes the rev limit to 7500. I'm currently running this in my car and had it back to back dyno'd, the chip have me about 5 hp over the whole rev range and extended the rev limit which is where my peak power currently is. If you have someone with a emprom reader we could copy it and flash a new one... I think it cost me $60 including shipping... I run the same engine as you. Might be a quick upgrade till the link is wired in.

Exhaust - changing the exhaust will not do much it's fairly free flowing as it is, you will get a lot more noise out of it.... If you make your own extractors prepare for a fair bit of work as you will most likely have the 8 branch exhaust and will need to create a taper in the manifold if you want to use a 4 branch system to help the air flow nicely into the manifold. Some of the guys are seeing 10hp out of a good manifold.

Sump - You WILL need to baffle the crap out of the sump to run Hampton Downs. I had a local guy make my baffle kit and extend the sump to take an extra 900ml or so of oil. These engines are notorious for starvation. I got a 30psi pressure drop on track 2 at taupo. Buy the Peugeot Sport 6bar oil pump spring (Greg Kent - 09-444-7703 - has them for like $10).

Brakes - Uber pads = Carbon Loraine RC6... If you want to try them in my car, your more than welcome. Disc's i'll be looking at the Zenolli disc's when i've worn my current flat factory spec set out. check out the 405 forum mentioned below about the 406 brakes on the 405...

Web resources - http://forum.405mi16.com/ - obvious reasons... http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/ <--- the mi16 engine is in soo many of their cars it's another great resource for engine info.... http://www.taylor-eng.com/index.html <--- good info, i've got some parts from him, Cam's had a bit of a issue with him regarding an exhaust re-angling plate for his car, a bunch of the guys in the uk are getting his cam's and loving them.

Sway Bars - I"ll need to double check this, but if i remember correctly the 405 is slightly narrower than the 306 - so you will be able to use the 306 gti-6 or s16 rear arb if you cut it down and weld on one of the end plates. This is very common and i've done the same for my car also. Just make sure you have a very competent welder as you have to make sure the end plates are aligned.

Please don't run carbs! You will need to run aftermarket ecu's and you will get much better results from a fuel injection system. The top end is got for 7500 all day anything more and you run the risk of lifter float, you will need to go solid lifter to get around this. The bottom end is good for 8k before it needs work.

Sandy is the guy on the 205 forum that is making the ITB's with very very good results. Not the cheapest but made to a high standard.

Also one option that is taking hold is using the Honda K20 and K22 engine, one of the guys had it using the factory 205 mounts and the Pug gearbox = all the pug hubs, brakes, driveshafts, etc...

[keltik]

Cool good info. Will have the G4 in it within a month so no point worrying about chips or crabs. Will do more research into sump baffling and sway bars next as these are likely to be the first 2 mods.

Priority list;

1) WOF

2) New brakes

3) Weight Reduction

4) Oil pressure gauge

5) Baffled Sump

6) Wire in my G4

7) Lower and stiffen with sway bars

Everything else i want to do can wait until ive thrown this thing around a bit and decided what it needs.

[Vintage Grumble]

Death proof rip off sticker with a french twist.

Edit: Fuck you smiley face, thats an 8 with a ) behind it!!

[drtdvl]

Sump photos of construction:

Gearbox Side Plate:

Windage Tray / Pump Baffle:

<--- there is now a couple small holes drilled in between the spacer/strengthing plate to allow oil to drain back into the sump

Factory Spacer/Strengthing plate (with pump to show location):

I'll need to made a notched tower style end for the pump to lower the pickup also.

[CaMpylobacter]

Is oil pressure issue helped by running a higher oil level at all heath?

speed.co.nz is a good place for oem parts at cheaper prices. pays to check sometimes, though, as they've been a bit dearer sometimes too, but, overall, the shit I've got from them is a lot cheaper than pug. I don't buy much genuine parts though.

I get genuine numbers from a login to pug's epc. dunno if you can still sign up but I managed to for free a few years ago and my log in has never expired. touch wood.

been reading a bit about adding external drains to the cylinder heads on these. apparently the head filling with oil, leaving the sump level lower, is more of a problem than the oil getting sloshed around (like 4age stuff too i guess).

still kicking myself for being too slow clicking buy now on the drysump kit for a grand on the tard

[mikuni]

Drysump would be a super sweet solution, especially for that price.

I'm not a huge fan of having rivets and other little pieces of metal or moving parts in the sump. I guess if it's constructed well it shouldn't fail.

[CaMpylobacter]

this is what my trap door looks like hah.

plus i have a baffle bolted to the oil pump,

and a gti6 windage tray.

plus the more ballah oil pressure relief valve spring.

no idea how it'll work out yet. need to get my pos running. shit.

and yeah. ummed and arred about dry sump due to it being off a car that'd had a turbo engine blow to bits (i assume). then decided to bite the bullet and missed out. FFFF

keeping my eye out in the UK at the moment for a good secondhand setup, or may go for a new one. the drive setup for the pump worries me a little for damage from debris. hmm.

[keltik]

Been reading about the dry sump setup from pace. Found this really good article http://www.canong3.co.uk/pug/mi16pacedrysump.pdf

Seems like a good bit of kit but i wouldnt be keen to have the tank all the way in the boot. Anyways - thats further down the line. I think id rather do an accusump and baffles.

[drtdvl]

The extra oil increases the capacity of the system leaving it less likely to run low on oil and suck air on the sustained high-g corners. More oil will also help with oil temp issues as there is a larger volume of oil to heat. I think with my oil cooler (can't remember if it's 11 or 13 row) i'm up to about 7-8 liters of oil now in my system.

There is an amazing number of threads on the 205 site about the starvation & pressure issue, and I'm fairly sure the head not draining issue got debunked and that it's a combination of many little things to create one big thing - the external drains help but are not the golden bullet to solve all problems.

Other know more about it than me...

But yeah i'm sitting usually about 65 - 70psi warm, 80psi+ when cold.

Brad: They are all covered in oil so it should all be lubricated. This is just the first version. I"m planning to use this as a template and make another thats more refined.

Cam: you could easily make a protective shield for the belt / drive gears, like what you have for the cambelt...

You could look at putting the oil tank by the co-drivers feet or where the heater core was - if your planning to remove it. Lots of places to put it if you get creative with your thinking... The boot is just used because it easy...

Suspension Thread Link - http://forum.405mi16.com/index.php?showtopic=1133

I'd post up there and ask if the torsion bars fit - or talk to one of the fastfrog guys to see if they can try fitting a 405 torsion bar to their 309 or visa versa... If they do fit then call Citroen and ask for the berlingo van torsion bars that where 21.3mm it's an upgrade to your 20mm bars and should be about 20 or so percent stiff... You could also be on the lookout for some second hand 309 torsion bars from europe or buy them new off the shelf in 23mm+ diameter.

There is an image in that thread showing the 405 arb is about 10mm shorter than the 306 s16/gti-6 arb, so you could defiantly cut it and weld it up to make a 405 24mm arb.

i.e.

[keltik]

$300 for a pair of Znoelli S6 rotors and their 550degree pads. The S12 are now heat treated compared to when i bought my last set so the price has gone up. Would probably be closer to the $480 mark for discs and pads.

[drtdvl]

Because i'm bored at work....

Part numbers for torsion bars:

I think Citroen where cheaper (same part) and they where something like $200 each...

[keltik]

New windscreen sorted. None of the trim fits very well but thats because Smith&Smith did it.

Brake booster and wof next.

No rugby on tonight so might have a go at tidying up the engine bay for Mr Wof man. 5macks - might catch up with ya after work?