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Turbo chat. Educate me (About wastegates)


Muncie
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Got a a long winded holden L67 build going on at home the supply of supercharger options that will make good power reliably and easily are actually a pain in butt to obtain. Years ago I decided on this engine but tech has since moved on since I started all the cool stuff I wanted isn't available anymore for the supercharger.

So I've 90% decided to ditch the blower and go single turbo as it would give me the ability to turn the boost up as desired without pulley and belt swaps, what should I be considering EG: internal/external wastegates sizing and bearing types.

My research has led me to look at an XR6 Gt3582 off a Barra as they have an internal wastegate to simplify plumbing the exhaust and are on a similar size engine.

Specs of one ive found:

PULSAR GTX3582R GEN 2 for XR6 Falcon Territory to replace the factory GT3582 turbo


this turbo comes with 0.82A/R T3 inlet 5-bolt outlet 

BRAND NEW

Tags: ball bearing, billet compressor wheel, G Series

*New Aerodynamic 10 blade billet compressor wheel flow more air over the stock cast or Gen1 11 blade billet wheel
*New Aerodynamic 9 blade turbine wheel, less weight, lower inertia, and higher flowability
*Genuine structure and rebuildable dual ceramic ball bearing system
*Larger 0.72A/R compressor cover with Anti-Surge 4" inlet
1.06A/R turbine housing with larger 38mm wastegate hole and 43mm flap over stock housing
*Billet actuator with black anodized coating
*3 Layer Stainless Steel 5 Bolt Gasket

Description
Compressor Wheel: 65.7X82.6mm(extended tip diameter: 85.29mm)
Turbine Wheel: 68X62.3mm
*Compressor Inlet: 4" Hose
*Compressor Outlet: 2.5" Hose
*Turbine Inlet: T3 Open
*Turbine Outlet: 5 Bolt
*Water Ports: -6AN
*Oil Feed: -4AN to the Oil Restrictor
*Oil Drain: Std T3 Oil Drain Flange
*Actuator working pressure: 14psi

Application:
Replacement for factory XR6 GT3582R GT3576R Turbos.

Screenshot_20220102-183806_Trade Me.jpg

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Thats a lot of turbo for an L67.     a  gtx30**    would probably be better suited.    remember the NA  barra makes decent bit  more power than an NA L67.   Which directly effects how much power it will make turbo  and how well will spool the turbo

worst bara numbers i found:

Power: 182 kW (244 hp) @ 5250 rpm
Torque: 380 N⋅m (280 lb⋅ft) @ 3250 rpm

moo numbers

177 (hp) Horsepower at 4800 Rpm
320 Nm @ 3200 Rpm | 236.02 lb.-ft. @ 3200 Rpm

 

In a perfect world should make double the power on 1 bar boost ,can usually get close on a good setup.   turbo not supercharger, they are horrible

bara  - 488hp

moo -  354hp

 

 

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So what ive read from the above is....... I need to look for a 

A, a Barra

B, a smaller turbo if I don't want lag.

My only aim is a 12 second quarter have factored in a high stall converter or manual box might be needed to make this happen as well as some diff gears.

Realistically I'd probably be happy to just have it go really well and not blow up providing it drives nice.

 

 

 

 

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Garrett 3576 off an fg is a smidgen smaller than the 3582. 

Also Barra has dual vct to assist with spool, and we all know that the wizardry to be able to swing the cams is very benificial.. My falcon is at full torque / lots of boost at around 2300rpm.

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Yeah if you do the math on the  bara torque numbers   is making 173hp at  3250rpm.   which is pretty much peak power for the l67.  so can see how the barra would spool turbo way sooner

So yeah look at the power rather than engine size if comparing

Just looking at the plusar page  maybe something like this would be better suited.  dont quote me on it haven't looked into it too hard..  https://www.pulsarturbo.com.au/collections/gtx-gen2/products/pulsar-gtx3071r-gen2-turbocharger

either way it'l go heaps better and probably more reliable with turbo over supercharger. since more stress on engine to make same power with supercharger

 

 

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@kpr 

9 hours ago, kpr said:

In a perfect world should make double the power on 1 bar boost ,can usually get close on a good setup.   turbo not supercharger, they are horrible

bara  - 488hp

moo -  354hp

 

 

What's horrible superchargers or the L67? 

Any opinions on wastegates? Internal or external at what point should I be thinking of going external.

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Personally I don't think that's too bad of a turbo for the V6 motor (comp inducer is too big IMO). Because it's got the smaller .82 turbine housing (normally has 1.06 on the 4L) then I think It'll probably drive good, but i haven't messed with china replacements so really don't know what it's like or how it will last...

Internal gates are great IF it's big enough to bypass enough gas... which is something the genuine 3582's can struggle with when a bigger compressor is added, so most of the time it's safer to go with a bigger external gate and then you know(if installed correctly) it won't ever boost creep and you can change springs to change boost level, personally I'd only run v-band externals, 2-bolt style is asking for trouble one day down the track.

The genuine ford turbo would be more suited, but sometimes you gotta work with what you can get...

The 30 series turbine is way too small IMO, The 35 turbine wheel flows sooo much more(actually flows amazing amounts for a 68mm size wheel) well on the garrett's it does anyway

As for Ballbearing Vs Bush, I'd take bush bearings if available because they last better and are simpler, if going BB then you'd probably want to look at a genuine garrett.

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^ good advice from kpr and driftnmaz.. 

 

There are a bunch of options for oversizing the internal flapper of the Ford /Garrett exhaust housings and off the shelf uprated actuators too. 7 ports into one can be a little tricky to fabricate (6 plus the waste gate) 

If I was on a budget I'd be looking for a plain bearing borgwarner s200 from a John deere or similar out of the usa rather than an aftermarket China spec falcon turbo.. Preferably with the green paint on it if possible. 

T4 flange also gives you a bit more real-estate to plumb up those 7 pipes. 

 

Although in saying that if a Ford 3576 popped up cheap enough I reckon it'd do the job, with an oversized flapper.. Are you after a street able daily, or a weekend type car..

I'm not really up with 1/4 mile times but assume you'll need low to mid 300kw for a 12 sec pass in a full weight Commodore? Depending on 60ft and transmission setup. 

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10 hours ago, Muncie said:

@kpr 

What's horrible superchargers or the L67? 

Any opinions on wastegates? Internal or external at what point should I be thinking of going external.

Both,  but mostly superchargers.  you get way more power boost for boost out of a turbo setup. 

depends on the turbo you use re gate type.  a lot of aftermarket stuff doesn't come with internal gate these days.   easier just to go external

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, mjrstar said:

Are you after a street able daily, or a weekend type car..

I'm not really up with 1/4 mile times but assume you'll need low to mid 300kw for a 12 sec pass in a full weight Commodore? Depending on 60ft and transmission setup. 

Aim is a lazy weekend car that wouldn't be unbearable as a daily. When I say lazy I mean if it came on boost at 3000-3500rpm  that would be perfect so I could still amble around and just chop down a gear to get it cooking. 

2500rpm high stall converter will get done with a shift kit to help it hold together.

Not after massive power as that will break diffs and gearboxes if it's faster than a ls1 that would also be pretty pleasing and probably do.

 

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They ran a GT45 on that engine with the blower too! 23psi manifold pressure would love to know what temps were out of the blower.

Car is set up with 600hp worth of fuel pump now more if I go AN-8 fuel line, I may build an engine later but for now setting up with a turbo with some headroom for later on would it be terrible to go the GTX3582R? 

As for the bearing types I hadn't thought about that the roller bearings letting go, ive killed a few plain bush bearings before hence I thought it'd be an upgrade and less resistance to spin up. China been China I get what you mean 

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I don't think the chinaGTX3582R with .82 turbine would be terrible, just maybe a tad laggy because the compressor will take alot of engery to get spinning fast enough to start making torque, once it does it will be a beast tho! I'd go external gate then you know it will flow enough if you wish to run low boost at some point, it sucks paying for dyno time only to find out gate hole is too small

I've had alot of turbo's glowing red hot over the years and the bush bearing ones always lasted longer, I believe its because they have a much higher oil flow so it's better when pushing their limits. (ballbearing you only drip the oil in with 1mm restrictor)

auto's put up with bigger turbos because the torque converter will eat up what you give it and load the motor, so this with a 2step to get spooling should give good results at the drag strip once you iron it all out

The GT45 is abit bigge, usually has ~68mm comp inducer, but it has the supercharger to spool it so you want a bigger turbo, I haven't watched any vids on it yet tho

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So taking what ive read above adding some compromise and a few hours of research I found a different version of the first turbo I saw.

V Bands for almost everything no internal wastegate.

As I'll fabricate all the manifolds and exhaust a v band setup will make that so much simpler.

https://www.trademe.co.nz/3411434776

0.83 A/R Still roller bearing but this brand seem to have a pretty good reputation for been reliable,  i won't be doing track days or burnouts to frequently so I think I might be ok.

And the photo is of 2 on a buick v6....

 

Screenshot_20220105-224630_Trade Me.jpg

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9 hours ago, kpr said:

 The 3576  would be better option in the 35 frame.  

How much power are you realistically aiming for?

Your probably right. Just talking with the supplier about sizing as they have some knowledge with my engine which is good. It's ordered they are putting it together to suit.

Power wise hadn't really put a number on it but probably 400hp at the wheels once I do a few more things to make it last.

Blower is sold so im committed now.

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  • Muncie changed the title to Turbo chat. Educate me (About wastegates)

If you want to run low pressure at some point then you want a large gate, if you were only ever running high boost then you'd get away with a small gate...

Being over 3L and that big compressor inducer, I'd run a 60mm if it was me, but you'd probably get away with a 50mm if positioned perfectly (this is called wastegate priority)

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Single or dual scroll? 

Id also say a 60mm of single but would probably get away with dual 38mm if running dual 

You can also weld the flange direct to the exhaust housing if you need too

Also typical rule of thumb is you can run double the spring pressure via a controller. 

Ie 5psi spring can run 10psi etc

Tipping you'll need about 1bar minimum to hit 400hp (could be wrong)

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So it's single scroll, 2.5" v band mount, was curious if it would be better to run dual gates or not eg one for each bank of the v6.

One massive gate would make plumbing far easier. 

Aiming to start at 14-15 psi with any luck that'll be pretty peppy the block will take that no problem. 

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