WORROY7 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 I have a 3sge in my FRASER 7 with ITB. I have captured some engine data MAP, RPM, TPS SPEED. Before I return to the dynometer I am seeking opinion of the MAP signal and if it collates close to a single throttle body. The Dynamic range over the 6 km run was 18 Kpa to 92 Kpa . I have inserted two images from the trace. ECU is haltech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 unsure what you are asking. but if its what mode to tune in; If you run out of vacuum before you get close to 100% throttle just tune fuel map in tps. If you have good vac all the way up to 100% throttle can use map. but likely means your throttles are too small also i dunno how haltech does it. but when tuning fuel map in tps, should be able to set the fuel model to baro correction or map. and the actual fuel map in tps. if its an aggressive setup with cams etc, use baro. if mild you can usually get away with map, which will make any idle speed stuff or the likes work easier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WORROY7 Posted February 8 Author Share Posted February 8 Hi kpr. My question is how does this map trace compare with single throttle body? Yes I am running MAP . The set up uses 4 MAP sensors with software. Without having a single throttle body MAP to compare I was reaching out to see if this version of my software was on target. The last version ran out of vac. Thanks I take that as a YES. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Its pretty hard to tell by those logs. but yeah run it at say 70% throttle. then 100% and see what the difference is. if 70% is same map reading as 100%, means you have no way to tune the last 30% throttle. so will have a rich/lean situation at 70/100 throttle. As above its pretty easy to tune around with tps when you have it setup right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VitesseEFI Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 My experience, having run the same engine (6 cylinder Triumph) on single ITB with MAP as sole load sensing signal and then “upgraded” to ITBs is that both ignition and fuel maps were utterly different and it was not possible to use MAP as the sole load sensing signal as it wasn’t generating enough vacuum. (All 6 runners connected to a single sensor). I’m using “ITB mode” which is a blend of MAP and Alpha N (TPS) and seems to work ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WORROY7 Posted February 10 Author Share Posted February 10 Hi VitesseEFI I am running 4 Map sensors one for each ITB . The signals from these are processed by a PIC micro controller. This is version three hardware. I have put version one and two on a dyno. Each time learning what the Dyno operator was looking for. Before I go back to the dyno I was canvassing opinions on how the MAP signal tracks the TPS in above traces . This version is working the best and seems to mimic the single throttle the closest. I have had my 3sge Fraser on ITB for 20 years with three different ECU units; be down the air chamber box to one MAP rabbit hole; as you say not a good signal. Do you recall the dynamic range you got on the Vitesse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3spct Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 Im running ITBs on a A15 with a shit-tec ecu. Took ages to get the tune to work. Im running tps only as a load source, and using the map sensor as a baro sensor. Haltech did a vid on YouTube a while ago about tps only tuning on a ITB K20 engine, but glossed over a lot of stuff. I submitted a support request if they could add the TPS tune as shown in the vid as a base file, as there are none included in the base maps library, and after a month of tumbleweeds was told they don't have a TPS base map as there isn't enough demand. Yeah ok. Recently they release a new firmware which has supposedly better accel self learn, great, did the update and got like 6 conflicts in my tune setup, requested a support request again and was told my tune is "wrong" and all sorts. FFS. I ended up rolling the tune back and have vowed to just never connect laptop again, because every time i attempt to improve the tune or update it just makes things worse. Right now it runs good so i just leave it alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 The video they done on that itb honda was kinda pointless, as the throttles were too small for it, = vacuum. so they kinda just tuned as normal. does haltech not have a built in baro sensor? In most cases with Itb's, just throw away your map sensor and tune in tps vs rpm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3spct Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 They allow for map sensor to be used as a baro sensor, if you use it as map sensor then you need an external baro sensor. BUT the new firmware insists on using the map sensor for something, and looses its shit if you try use it as a baro sensor, and needs map for something even tho my old tune everything is ref to tps. Tried to sort it but car wouldn't run right no matter what i did so rolled it back to old tune. I get check engine lights all the time for things that cant be referenced or searched, lots of abbreviations that dont link back to anything in the software of help files, so i just dont have a bulb in check engine light on dash anymore. Haltech hardware is fine, generally its a ok product, I've just had a really shit run with trying to do something different, (running ITB's with a poor vac signal for map), and the so called "support' is rubbish. Annoys me when Skid Factory, who get tens of thousands of product free, go on about how fantastic the support is. They have cell phone nos for the top techs in Aus., in NZ the agent here doesn't seem to know much, and I've literally waited weeks for a response. The AFR lean trip is impossible to track on logs, despite many attempts to log different things, the ecu only logs things you tell it to log. I know its a lean spot somewhere, but it doesn't trigger a check engine light, so cant log when the fault happens to see where on the map it happens. The other 2 voltage ref and voltage ration items ive got zero idea what they are, as the help file just lists all the codes with nothing about what they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WORROY7 Posted February 11 Author Share Posted February 11 Hi R3spct What ECU model from Haltech are you using? I have used E11 and now I am using the elite 2500. Prior to this I used Kalmaker with GM ECM as used in VN Holden. I am not using the internal Map. I have connected by MAP box to an analog input. No trouble codes. This is why I built the MAP box so I can get good vacuum signals. I would agree the support is not as good as it was. I recall calling haltech Australia from the side of the road when running the E11 many years ago. However my most recent ticket remains unanswered. It may be since Haltech was acquired by Race Winning Brands inc the support enthusiasm has diminished and the forum has disappeared. kpr said In most cases with Itb's, just throw away your map sensor and tune in tps vs rpm. I disagree with this, I am running 45 TWM (Borla 2900 series) and I have a good steady with dynamic range MAP signal this provides the other axis for the BASE table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 I've got Haltech 1500, running a 4g63, DBW, ITBs, turbo, its always been super easy to tune both on the older ESP firmware and newer NSP Tuning method is "Volumetric Efficiency", Fuel Load type is TPS, Base fuel map is RPM vs TPS but Ignition base map is RPM vs Ignition Load I use an external map sensor because its turbo, I also run a wideband with long term trim enabled, a knock and flex fuel sensor Not sure any of this helps but happy to share any info or tune if it would help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3spct Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 7 hours ago, WORROY7 said: Hi R3spct What ECU model from Haltech are you using? I have used E11 and now I am using the elite 2500. Prior to this I used Kalmaker with GM ECM as used in VN Holden. I am not using the internal Map. I have connected by MAP box to an analog input. No trouble codes. This is why I built the MAP box so I can get good vacuum signals. I would agree the support is not as good as it was. I recall calling haltech Australia from the side of the road when running the E11 many years ago. However my most recent ticket remains unanswered. It may be since Haltech was acquired by Race Winning Brands inc the support enthusiasm has diminished and the forum has disappeared. kpr said In most cases with Itb's, just throw away your map sensor and tune in tps vs rpm. I disagree with this, I am running 45 TWM (Borla 2900 series) and I have a good steady with dynamic range MAP signal this provides the other axis for the BASE table. Elite 1500 with NSP.. One of my 1st support tickets was on initial setup trying to find Injector Size. Searched for , fuel, injector, size, nothing, oh, its called FLOW and its under a subtab called Stage1, of course how stupid of me. Was the beginning of the end of my hate of the product. It drives the car, it starts well hot or cold, fuel econ is ok on wideband with long term trim on. I really want to rewire and put head light controls and a GPS speedo input, but CBF pulling the dash out to wire those things in. I started the car with a Nismotronic board in a Nissan sr18de ecu, and it ran great, but wanted something better supported and current. Nismotronic never told you off. Nismotronic logged everything, so when you check a log and want to say check inj duty, or see what was happening when there was a lean spot or missfire, everything was there. Also could plug ecu into laptop with usb and change anything, download logs, upload tunes, all without key on. Haltech you need key on, and the wideband is red hot, so unless you turn key off for 20sec to let the sensor cool before starting it cracks the sensor. Been through 4 sensors in last 2 years and im super careful. Old Innovate in my primera on Nismotronic i had the same sensor for 3 years. Suggested to Haltech some way where key is on and engine not running for period of time that it cools the sensor down, but got the std response, "no one else has that problem", ok you get to sell more sensors your way, ok. ANYWAY, sorry for thread hijack..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 9 hours ago, WORROY7 said: kpr said In most cases with Itb's, just throw away your map sensor and tune in tps vs rpm. I disagree with this, I am running 45 TWM (Borla 2900 series) and I have a good steady with dynamic range MAP signal this provides the other axis for the BASE table. I'm just saying you can tune perfectly fine without the map sensor, no need to complicate things. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 6 hours ago, nobody said: I've got Haltech 1500, running a 4g63, DBW, ITBs, turbo, its always been super easy to tune both on the older ESP firmware and newer NSP Tuning method is "Volumetric Efficiency", Fuel Load type is TPS, Base fuel map is RPM vs TPS but Ignition base map is RPM vs Ignition Load I use an external map sensor because its turbo, I also run a wideband with long term trim enabled, a knock and flex fuel sensor Not sure any of this helps but happy to share any info or tune if it would help I run the same setup, just link's version of it, on my itb turbo setup. has an afr lookup table to tell the fuel model how much extra fuel with the map. assume haltech does similar. works on na stuff as well, but isnt the go to on more aggressive stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Hey @WORROY7 you should consider buying a copy of Megalog viewer HD. This way rather than viewing the results as a time plot, you can show it on an XY graph with different things as the axes which will give a clearer view of things. If you can export your log file as CSV or similar and send it to me I'll post you some graphs if you want. If an NA motor is doing low 90 KPA at full throttle then I'd be very seriously looking at why it's so choked up on the intake side. If it's more than say 3kpa below atmospheric pressure then it needs a better inlet. anyway, here's an XY plot of a beams 3SGE engine using a factory plenum with a MAP sensor connected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WORROY7 Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 Hi Roman Yes I got a copy of the software last night after by haltech data viewer would not load a large file. I have a scatter xy map and it does not look like the one you show. I do not think there is a restriction it is just the way my software is reading the 4 pressure sensors. Fantastic image it gives me something to work with. Thank you. I would be interested in correspondence. I will post my image once I worked out how to use the Mega log viewer HD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudley Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 I’m sorry but I thought this was oldschool.co.nz? Where we fuck with carbs and incorrectly jet them so they run rich asf 24/7? 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudley Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 12 hours ago, kpr said: I run the same setup, just link's version of it, on my itb turbo setup. has an afr lookup table to tell the fuel model how much extra fuel with the map. assume haltech does similar. works on na stuff as well, but isnt the go to on more aggressive stuff I’ve heard mega squirt is the future of ecus? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3spct Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 7 hours ago, Dudley said: I’m sorry but I thought this was oldschool.co.nz? Where we fuck with carbs and incorrectly jet them so they run rich asf 24/7? Is there any such thing as correctly jetted carb? Also where do you plug laptop in to a carb? Asking for a friend.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudley Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 On the vacuum port just use your normal usb cord, or if you want more accurate results slip it down the barrel when a wide open Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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