KP60 Circuit car tips and help

[Roman]

back the truck up beave

 

on this occasion he is talking sense,  those honda motors really are actually "that good"  its going to be less stressed to do whatever output you want, probably newer? has better aftermarket support and more scope for upgrades. initial cost difference to beams is minor. and like he said if its a proper circuit car you should be dry sumping really.

 

if its a circuit car and you dont need a dry sump you aren't cornering hard enough surely?

Haha, you guys make it sound like a binary decision between owning a road car and a full blown F1 car.

A dry sump is never a necessity and with modifications to the standard pan a beams motor can corner at 1.5g+ no sweat.

There are many examples of much more powerful cars lapping low 1:40s at Taupo full track with a wet sump. (Sometimes dry sump not allowed in racing classes)

There's no way you would have any change short of $15k to get a K24A (with no performance mods) setup RWD in a starlet.

To get a 300hp K24A would be 20k easy... Yes there's more scope for modification but that's if you've got any money left after you get the thing going.

I would say you could do a beams motor for maybe $5-8k depending on a few things.

Rookie it's funny that you're advocating the most expensive possible options for the engine, and every other option is not worth bothering with.

Yet vouching for a locked diff because it's the cheapest (and worst) option. Having a proper LSD is like going from carbs to EFI

[Rookie]

Man a dry sump is just cheap insurance, I spent $600 on mine and the machining bill to rebuild the motor after I blew it up last time was nearly that alone. Take away the fact I got my pump for $300 and then say you buy a $1200 pump then you are looking at ~$1500 maybe a little more by the time you add pulleys and stuff, but when you are buying $1500 motors it just makes sense, you only need to blow one up to pay for it.

 

I have a feeling your figures are a little over inflated but in the ball park and that is the cost of doing business IMO, what do you think will add up to the 10k price difference between the k series and the Beams?

If you want a race car, then it better be able to win; hence why I dislike my lotus so much.

 

I'll take you for a skid in the lotus and then tell me if you can tell that it has a locked diff in it. The basically all of the great racecars have had spools in them, sure if you have mega mega dollars you can get a tunable LSD that will be slightly faster around a track than spool, but for the most part, particularly at our level, then a car setup with a spool will be as quick if not quicker than a car with a 2 way LSD.

[Truenotch]

Beams is sweet, wet sump is legit. Spend as little as is practical and go have lots of fun, then develop it as you go.

Don't listen to engineers cause they never talk sense when it comes to club level racing.

[EFI_LC]

Couple of things here.

Budget, $2k spent on a 6-speed J160 and Beams with 35mm titanium valves larger ports more aggressive cam and better tune etc than the auto Beams use.

These things have been used in various Toyota projects for good HP but what I am after is around 200HP and to use an already RWD motor/box setup to save money and so that the dizzy sits in the correct place etc.

So far as the car and a bit of fab work on it, i can do it. The car I bought has been racing for the last 15 years and has 8 rims 4xslicks and 4xroad tires.

It has a LOCKED diff which is not my idea of a good handling option and will get a decent LSD asap.

It has ok brakes, shocks and suspension which wont be changed until it's running.

I will likely be running an after market ECU but even if I wasn't I am not that worried as the main thing to do is getting it mobile then sort the rest out.

The sump is is baffled nicely and will do for now.

 

So far a lot talk has been about another engine and thats cool as I learn from this but this car is getting a Beams

It wont be the 500kW Beams which was raced in some Toyota's but it will give me some fun like my old LC Torana did with Power to weight.

It won't have a dry sump or a turbo or hot cam or double rolled valve cover bolts or blah blah.

But what it will have is a shit load of fun on the tarmac, grass, dirt and occasional DYO Drag racing.

 

Love the thread..... thanks farkin heaps for the input.

[Roman]

Hey there are a few tricks you can use that will be helpful... (probably what you were after in the first place haha)

 

-There are two sets of holes for where the shifter bolts on to the gearbox. You can bash out the split pin in on the shifter part that's on the shaft, turn it around 180 degrees and then run the shifter bracket on the further forward set of holes. Definitely do this, it helps a lot!

-You can run a W series gearbox spline into the back of the box, these are thicker beefier driveshafts than Altezza ones. But altezza size will be fine and a bit lighter.

 

-They used to sell a TRD sump for these motors, but it effectively just does these mods to factory parts:
Take the lower oil pan off, and there's a top tray part that runs around the edge of the bowl. You can hammer one of the corners down shut, and use a bead of sealant around the gaps to close any other gaps. Stops the oil coming back out the top under hard cornering.

-Put a spacer (I'll find how thick it needs to be, cant remember) between the oil pickup and the block so it sits lower down. (TRD car does this, although wont apply if you need to cut the bowl shorter for clearance)

 

- Weld a small steel pipe that protrudes upwards and downwards, into the disptick hole in that same metal plate as above. Stops the oil sloshing through there.

 

-You can use a W5* gearbox speedo sender if you want to convert the box to a cable speedo. Probably wont be accurate though!

 

-No distributor to worry about on these engines! The back of the head is reasonably uncluttered.

-There's an external oil drain on the exhaust side of the block, from the head back to the sump. But the internal drains are on the intake side. So if you needed to lean the motor slightly one way or the other it shouldnt really matter.

 

-Find a fuel rail from a Caldina single VVTI beams motor if you can, then you get a free FPR on the fuel rail. Runs at a lower pressure than Altezza but doesnt matter if you're running aftermarket ECU.

-Take the engine cover off, or run some ducting into and out of it to keep the coilpacks cool. As if your coilpacks are on the fritz they start to pack up first when they get hot.

[Rookie]

Nice!

 

What diff does it have in it now? I would suggest that you drive if before you spend $1500 on a LSD if it is up to the power, if is is the stock U code then looking for a new diff would be a good idea.

 

Are you planning on ITBs?

[EFI_LC]

Thanks Roman, now thats some great info and I will be checking things out.

I have only sized things up by eye at present as the car and the engine are in 2 separate places. I bought the car on TM as a gamble and that fact it had a homolagated cage, guages, seats, belts, slicks and was tidy.

The diff I am unsure of at this stage as I don't know my Toyota parts too well but starting to learn.

 

Nort sure of a diff at this stage but I have several BW housing's I could chop up and one with Nissan discs on.

 

Not sure what ITB's are?

[Rookie]

Individual Throttle Bodies.

[EFI_LC]

Individual Throttle Bodies.

Na, sounds like money and time to me, as I say Budget bang for Bucks.

I reckon I can have this mobile for $6k.

 

I would prefer to spend some money on my BMW or SS especially the later as I am in the middle of sorting out a decent tune for that as it has 180kW at the wheels but I want more Torque for it

[Roman]

get an f series diff (7.5" crownwheel) and bang in a factory torsen lsd from an altezza. can get them for about 400 bucks.

depending on tire size either a 4.1 or 4.3 ratio will be best for a standard rev limit engine.

[EFI_LC]

get an f series diff (7.5" crownwheel) and bang in a factory torsen lsd from an altezza. can get them for about 400 bucks.

depending on tire size either a 4.1 or 4.3 ratio will be best for a standard rev limit engine.

Thanks for that, and some mentioned the Estima uses these so it is on my shopping list.

 

Roman what do you think about the stock ecu, as I figured I would just peel out what I don't need and hook it up, I sort of have a wiring diagram so hopefully it's good enough unless you know of a better one?

[Rhyscar]

Locked diffs are the work of the devil for handling. Always end up with corner entry push etc it's just yuck.

Plate type if the way forward. Really it's not that much money in the bigger scheme of things/they last forever

[Rookie]

Incorrect.

[Roman]

Rookie your car (with a long wheelbase and narrow track width) is the least affected by the downsides of a locked diff.

Mine sledged the front heaps on corner entry, and mid corner or corner exit if you went over a small bump at the front the diff would push the car forwards.
Night and day difference after changing away from that.
All of this would be even worse in a starlet which has a proportionally wider track / shorter wheelbase.

 

A $400 torsen is well worth the trouble of fitting.
 

My experiences with a variety of diff types agrees pretty much exactly with the sentiments here.

http://www.taylor-race.com/pdf/understanding_differentials.pdf

 

[Roman]

Roman what do you think about the stock ecu, as I figured I would just peel out what I don't need and hook it up, I sort of have a wiring diagram so hopefully it's good enough unless you know of a better one?

There are a few tricky bits to getting the factory ECU going.

 

You need to keep the electronic throttle body working, or you get an error code.

Which means you need to fit an accellerator pedal angle sensor.

Should be able to get one from an Altezza wreck for next to nothing.

You also need an electronic speedo signal setup and a few other bits and pieces or you get error codes and possibly limp mode.

It's not as straight forward as earlier engines, but doable!

Getting the MAF sensor signal to be correct is by far the most critical part of getting these engines working well on factory ECU.

There's a powerfc available for the Altezza, cheap and easy plug and play option if you can find one. Not the most elegant ECU option but cheap and as simple as it could possibly be to set it up.

[Truenotch]

You don't need an electronic pedal, is all on the throttle body (the cable connects to the angle sensor part of the throttle and the plate is controlled separately).

[Rookie]

My wheelbase and track width is almost identical to a KP60 btw.

[Roman]

Oh really? Heh.

An optical illusion of having no overhangs and being an open wheeler I guess

[Roman]

You don't need an electronic pedal, is all on the throttle body (the cable connects to the angle sensor part of the throttle and the plate is controlled separately).

Ahh that makes sense!

You've wired one up with Altezza engine/loom yeah? I cant comment too much further as the redtop loom is quite different.

[Truenotch]

Dan has sorted most of the wiring on his but it was a full loom to start with and he cut the minimum number of wires