Turbo feinds give me info re clutch, pumps, tanks

[Gaz]

Ok I need a few questions answered that im a bit unsure on and thought you guys could help with.

Ive got everything I need to build my CA18det up to somewhere between 200-250rwkw except for the things I dont know about.

1. Clutch

2. Fuel pump

3. Fuel tank/surge & lift pump

First question re clutch.

I know I need a larger one but how do I know how much bigger. I dont want a stupid one that bites hard and is generally a cunt to drive. I also dont want one that isnt going to slip and need replacing 1 year down the track. So the question really is, how do I choose my clutch? Wonder if an RB clutch of types could be an option for the CA?

Second question re fuel pumps. I see all these pumps advertised as 500hp pumps etc etc. Is this right?? I just buy say a BOSCH 910 and that will sort me up to 400hp? Surelly differant engines etc need differant amounts of fuel to reach these power levels.. Would'nt I be better to go by flow, in which case where do I start? Any disadvantage of running a slightly larger pump than needed?

Third Q. I have a tank that has no baffles, I wasnt planing on baffling it I was just going to run a 2l surge tank, will this be ok. If so will a VL or RB type external pump do the trick as a lift pump? Pretty sure this will be a fine setup but thought Id ask anyway since im on the topic.

Thanks

Gaz

[CaMpylobacter]

got a vl pump somewhere you can have to test for use as a lift pump if required.

[fishtailfred]

1. 
   [*:25gavdfs]Organic full face with stiff springs and extra heavy duty pressure plate = ftw on the street
   [*:25gavdfs]if you are using X fuel you are making Y hp more or less. Those ratings are true at certain pressures. if you wanted to make 500hp from a 1.0 3 pot daihatsu at 50psi boost, the 910 wouldnt cut it. At normal boost levels, the 910 is a good pump.
   [*:25gavdfs](no baffle + 2.0surge tank) >>>> (baffle and no surge tank)

you are on the right track

[fishtailfred]

For 3 though, you need two pumps. you cant just use a surge tank inline with the main tank...

See this : http://www.diyefi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=47

Scale it to suit your needs. 910 for "big" pump and any std oem external (quite a few hondas have ext pumps apparently) to push it to the surge tank.

EDIT : what have you got for injectors? and engine management?

[eke_zetec_RWD]

where and what type of tank do you have? i could make you a special bowl to go to weld into the bottom that will eliminate surge even with no baffels.

general rule for fuel pumps.

1 litre per minute at 3 bar = 200hp

so u need 2 liters per minute or 120litres per hour. give or take.

[macabre]

efi pumps are shithouse for dragging fuel from the tank, so you will have to mount a efi lift pump in tank. i got a carter mecahnical lift pump in my bay and it does he trick, also running 2 x vl turbo pumps after the surge and bigger injectors and i got masses of fuel.

[sheepers]

another point you might want to consider is the return to the tank.

almost everybody runs the fuel return from the engine into the surge tank, you can do this if you want but this raises the temperature of the fuel you are supplying to the engine which is not good, it makes for unusual behavior if fuel temperature starts to increase.

return your fuel from the engine back to the main tank, there it can dissipate heat without any effect to you system as a whole.

sheepers.

[sentra]

1 send clutch to autoclutch sandringham in auck

2 tell them hwta your doing

3 ???

4 profit

[fishtailfred]

What makes you say EFI pumps are crap at pulling a vacuum?

If you return the main pump to the tank, your lift pump needs to be BIGGER than your main one. combine that with the rate at which your lift pump is recirculating back to the main tank, and fuel temperature (which was never very important in the first place) is a total non issue.

250rwkw = 335whp = 400crank = as you said over 2 litres per minute at turbo bsfc. if it were NA, 2 would be enough. plus, you want some headroom.

Bosch 0 580 254 910 Inline Fuel Pump

Bosch 910 fuel pumps mount inline (out side of your gas tank), most commonly rear center under your car or truck. Each Bosch 910 fuel pump provides 130LPH of flow and operate at 72.5 PSI.

Bosch 910 Fuel Pump Specs:

Bosch Part Number: 0 580 254 910

Minimum Current: 12 Volts

Operating Pressure: 72.5 PSI (5 Bar)

Minimum Flow @ Outlet: 34 GPH (130 LPH)

Fuel Pump Location: In-Line

Fuel Pump Connections:

Inlet: 15MM

Outlet: M12 x 1.5

Electrical: Positive M5 / Negative M4

Seems to imply that it will pull vacuum and suck up fuel very well, certainly that is what I found with it as my lift pump.

Not oversized at all, but should be good for what you want.

[Gaz]

[*]if you are using X fuel you are making Y hp more or less. Those ratings are true at certain pressures. if you wanted to make 500hp from a 1.0 3 pot daihatsu at 50psi boost, the 910 wouldnt cut it. At normal boost levels, the 910 is a good pump.

you are on the right track

Think I have the clutch sorted now, will get some quotes and ring some places next week when I have time.

The above. What does "normal boost levels" mean? Ill be running around 17-19PSI. Injectors are 510cc and as for a fuel reg.. would an adjustable NA one do or would I need a High Pressure specific one?

[Guest vvega]

in line pump are spose to be mounted lower than your tank to have a siphioning effect to help them operate

they do have good suction....but only when primed

[Gaz]

For 3 though, you need two pumps. you cant just use a surge tank inline with the main tank...

See this : http://www.diyefi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=47

Scale it to suit your needs. 910 for "big" pump and any std oem external (quite a few hondas have ext pumps apparently) to push it to the surge tank.

EDIT : what have you got for injectors? and engine management?

Yeah was going to run the VL pump as the lift pump and a 910 as the main. I do however have an external low press pump already, it seems it could be an option to use this as the lift pump?

510cc injectors.

Standard ECU remapped for ECU at the mo. Possiably build megasquirt if have trouble with standard ECU.

[Guest vvega]

[*]if you are using X fuel you are making Y hp more or less. Those ratings are true at certain pressures. if you wanted to make 500hp from a 1.0 3 pot daihatsu at 50psi boost, the 910 wouldnt cut it. At normal boost levels, the 910 is a good pump.

you are on the right track

Think I have the clutch sorted now, will get some quotes and ring some places next week when I have time.

The above. What does "normal boost levels" mean? Ill be running around 17-19PSI. Injectors are 510cc and as for a fuel reg.. would an adjustable NA one do or would I need a High Pressure specific one?

one that adds 1 psi of rail presure for every 1 psi of manifold presure would do nicely

and no you dont need a specail high presure one ...but i woudl recomend somethign of decent quality

if you have money ...aeromotive makes top notch gear

if not most factory one are better than teh cheap ones you can get off trademe

[Guest vvega]

For 3 though, you need two pumps. you cant just use a surge tank inline with the main tank...

See this : http://www.diyefi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=47

Scale it to suit your needs. 910 for "big" pump and any std oem external (quite a few hondas have ext pumps apparently) to push it to the surge tank.

EDIT : what have you got for injectors? and engine management?

Yeah was going to run the VL pump as the lift pump and a 910 as the main. I do however have an external low press pump already, it seems it could be an option to use this as the lift pump?

510cc injectors.

Standard ECU remapped for ECU at the mo. Possiably build megasquirt if have trouble with standard ECU.

vl pumps hate to run dry quite conon for them to seize so just be careful with that

lift pumps typically have bigger clearances so as not to heat the fuel any more than they have too...but almost any efi pump will flow masive amounts without any pressure restricting it

im guessing teh reason freds saytign at normal boost levels is

if you were runing 50 psi then your effect fuel pressure woudl be 50 psi + base presure

if base pressure = 40 psi then yoru asking it to push 90 psi

its limit is 72.5 psi

so it wouldnt be capible of supplying the required pressure

for that sort of situation you woudl look to somethign jetronics

but then fittings and piping become a issue

[Gaz]

Ok just read the link that Fred posted. Was very helpfull and I understand a bit more now.

For now I think I will stay with my standard fuel reg as im not sure I need to adjust it.. Infact, im not sure why I would ever need to adjust it? I can see I would need to adjust it if I wanted more flow from my injectors.. but they should'nt need more in this case.. I could I guess wind it down a bit so the pump wasnt working as hard.. but if I size the lines right then I should'nt need to do this either right? Am i missing something?

VVega, Ive also heard that about VL pumps, was recomended some type of early skyline alternative which apparently flows similar and isnt as prone when running dry.

If I did run out of gas in my main tank and still had say 10mins driving time in my surge tank before I realised it was out then Im guessing the pump would be running fry that whole time.. i.e, there is no cutoff? Do people/should I put a thermal cutout of types on it or just dont run bone dry lol.

Also, my tank is to be recessed half in boot half under carrige. My fuel lines are to all run inside the car (return aswell which I see I should make the same size as my feed) which means it will be pretty hard to get my inline pump lower than the tank outlets.. is this a big prob?

[Guest vvega]

Ok I need a few questions answered that im a bit unsure on and thought you guys could help with.

Ive got everything I need to build my CA18det up to somewhere between 200-250rwkw except for the things I dont know about.

1. Clutch

2. Fuel pump

3. Fuel tank/surge & lift pump

First question re clutch.

I know I need a larger one but how do I know how much bigger. I dont want a stupid one that bites hard and is generally a cunt to drive. I also dont want one that isnt going to slip and need replacing 1 year down the track. So the question really is, how do I choose my clutch? Wonder if an RB clutch of types could be an option for the CA?

a organic and heavy duty plate wont hold 250kw for any amount of time if you drive hard

Second question re fuel pumps. I see all these pumps advertised as 500hp pumps etc etc. Is this right?? I just buy say a BOSCH 910 and that will sort me up to 400hp? Surelly differant engines etc need differant amounts of fuel to reach these power levels.. Would'nt I be better to go by flow, in which case where do I start? Any disadvantage of running a slightly larger pump than needed?

running to bigger pump is not ideal..you run one that is teh right size for what you plan to do

there are 1800cc cars with 330fwkw's running a single 910 and a 1.5 litre surge .......thats dyno proven not a pipe dream

there are genuine walbours and copys

there runnng presure is rated differently

but if your only planing to run 19 psi max this wont be a issue for you

though in saying that yoru boost pressure will relate more to teh turbo yoru planing to run and less to teh power your tring to make

boost pressure is a measure of restiction not of power

Third Q. I have a tank that has no baffles, I wasnt planing on baffling it I was just going to run a 2l surge tank, will this be ok. If so will a VL or RB type external pump do the trick as a lift pump? Pretty sure this will be a fine setup but thought Id ask anyway since im on the topic.

Thanks

Gaz

with no baffles i woudnt recomend a vl pump

it will tend to suck a lot of air when yrou driving hard and they die pritty quickly liek that

ive probably binned 10-15 of these pumps from this

perhaps you shoudl look at a fuel cell form cardwells... there not that expensive and woudl solve a pile of you issues straight up

[Gaz]

Hrmm, the organic full face exedy clutchs advertised are rated to max 400hp street and autoX. Its not from there site tho, perhaps internet garbage. They jump in price alot when going from organic to Kevlar.

Im pretty settled on the Bosch 910, I think its the right size for what Im after just wanted confirmation. Am more worried about the lift pump TBH. I guess at $60odd a pop the VL pumps and the likes are cheap enough to get me going for now.

As for fuell cells, thats what I was originally looking for but cant afford just yet. I can always baffle this tank I guess.

[Guest vvega]

Ok just read the link that Fred posted. Was very helpfull and I understand a bit more now.

For now I think I will stay with my standard fuel reg as im not sure I need to adjust it.. Infact, im not sure why I would ever need to adjust it? I can see I would need to adjust it if I wanted more flow from my injectors.. but they should'nt need more in this case.. I could I guess wind it down a bit so the pump wasnt working as hard.. but if I size the lines right then I should'nt need to do this either right? Am i missing something?

2 reasons people ajust fuel pressure

one to get more from there injectors....IMO its a poinless exercise...look at any pump pressure vrs flow graph and you will see that more pressure = less flow avalible

and 2 to ajust teh line /base presure to suit teh specs of teh injectors....what its ment to be fore

certain presures give the best spray patterns for a given nossle design etc

VVega, Ive also heard that about VL pumps, was recomended some type of early skyline alternative which apparently flows similar and isnt as prone when running dry.

If I did run out of gas in my main tank and still had say 10mins driving time in my surge tank before I realised it was out then Im guessing the pump would be running fry that whole time.. i.e, there is no cutoff? Do people/should I put a thermal cutout of types on it or just dont run bone dry lol.

id give it 3 mins max before it sezied....that seamed to be about teh norm fromt he testing we have done...and thats on a brand new pump

you would certainly hear it run dry they make horrible noises...lol

in all honesty gaz....you just woudlnt run your tank that low..keep it above 1/4 sort of deal or really your just asking for trouble

specially if your intent to hang on to some unbaffled thing

Also, my tank is to be recessed half in boot half under carrige. My fuel lines are to all run inside the car (return aswell which I see I should make the same size as my feed) which means it will be pretty hard to get my inline pump lower than the tank outlets.. is this a big prob?

with a vl pump yes

with a proper lift pump ...no

the larger clearances in the proper lift pumps allow them to run dry without damage...infact a lot of teh newer ones seam to have teflon internals now as well to reduce wear in that sort of situation

it all depends how you wanna go about it

if youhave a bit of cash do it properly......

if you dont ..yoru better to save...and do as above than buy teh lesser componants and have all the headaches of things going wrong

as i said

if it ws me......

id be into a 910 and a fuel cell

http://www.cardwells.co.nz/Our_Brands/J ... Id/23.aspx

if your really worried about surge...get one with a bladder

[Guest vvega]

Hrmm, the organic full face exedy clutchs advertised are rated to max 400hp street and autoX. Its not from there site tho, perhaps internet garbage. They jump in price alot when going from organic to Kevlar.

Im pretty settled on the Bosch 910, I think its the right size for what Im after just wanted confirmation. Am more worried about the lift pump TBH. I guess at $60odd a pop the VL pumps and the likes are cheap enough to get me going for now.

As for fuell cells, thats what I was originally looking for but cant afford just yet. I can always baffle this tank I guess.

in the gto (gto had 837hp) i went from

stock to

puck to

kevlar to

tripple plate to

kevlar puck

the stock woudl give me 1-2 sidesteps..then eat itself

the puck woudl give me 30-50 sidesteps and in doing so eat the presure plate and the flywheel

the kevlar was a bit well ...fragile.... if you burnt it ...it was fucked

the tripple plate twisted teh input shaft off 2 gearbox's so was useless...though was quite driveable aside fromt he fact when ever you had you foot on teh cluch it sounded liek your just dropped a bucket of tablespoons in your bellhousing

the puck kevlar was FTW

the harder you thrashed it it harder it bit..and been a puck it had less of a tendancy to spin for teh split second and fry

it was solid center as well and TBH i can stand spring puck clutches now

3sgte aw11 had a solid center kevlar puck

i daily drove that for about 3 months ...had about 400 hp...and i had my foot up it anytime it wasent on the brake

turned teh boost up to 20 psi and it started to slip on 3rd gear clutch kicks ...that would have been about 500 hp

took it out after that 3 months...the wear on the puck was unmeasurable the flywheel was polished but no reases or lip and teh pp was mint as well

so this tells me that i was at the limit of grip on that combo...so i got a osguiken twinplate...that mike-e now owns

barry to start off with had a trd presureplate and a 4 puck solid cerametalic

dynoed at 330kw its handled teh dyno runs and a nit of street driving ..but started to slip after a few weeks

now runs a quatermater rallypack(you can slip these) twinplate ($1400) and while it takes gettign use to its quite driveable and has never slipped

looking to move to 400 kw now so will see if it holds that

to hold 250kw reliably expect to spend about a grand on a clutch

you spend a little more but you will save in time replacing shit ones and cost of replacement parts........

kevlar pucks can take low speed slipping quiet well and wear good...there well worth the money

...and get a solid centa ya puss

[forced]

Anybody who knows ANYTHING about clutches knows that they're rated by torque, not horsepower.

Anyone who talks horsepower is completely FOS.