forced Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 why try to help people ...and confuse teh fuck out of them as wellmake things to technical and some people have no idea what your on about It's not hard. Peak torque is always before peak power. A clutch will start slipping (if it slips at all) just before peak torque, well before peak power. Peak torque is normally anywhere from 3000 to 6000 rpm , depending on the motor & mods. A motor with peak torque at 3000 might have peak power at 5500, a motor with peak torque at 6000 might have peak power at 7000 or higher. As for your previous post, I think you just made it up. So , if a supplier starts talking POWER, go somewhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishtailfred Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Correct forced, and to top that off, if longevity is an issue (less than 10000km) then you need to adjust your idiotic habits. It's easy to do burnouts and shit all day without destroying a clutch, and driving hard at the track is easy as pie for the clutch. vvega was right about my "normal boost" comment. normal is say 10 - 25 psi, and base is usually 40 - 45. you are right that you wouldnt adjust them. Provided your stocker has a vac/pressure reference, it is probably already 1:1, it definitely is if it was boosted stock. I only went to an aftermarket because the 044 would probably outflow a stock mazda one at idle. I didn't have time to gamble... FRPs are simple things, chinese is fine usually. OEM is better than chinese and you should use it if you can as they hold pressure after you kill the engine and prevent vapour lock. That is a good point you raise there about the pump running dry when you run out of gas. It would be nice to have a float switch on the surge tank to let you know that was happening and kill the feeder at once. Then again, you'll rarely go that low... so... What does your external low pressure pump flow? flow is everything for a lifter. Pressure ceases to matter. If it flows say 50% of peak requirement, it will likely be enough on the average, ideally you want it to flow 80 - 100% of requirement, and the high pressure one 120%+ Just make sure you have a wideband on your dash to keep an eye on the factory ecu... 510cc will be very marginal at getting the power you want, but should do the trick. If you find it going lean in the top end, it could be the injectors, but reality says, 19psi on a ca18 probably will be ok with them... just. The 044 can supply silly pressure if you need it, if you want to be sure there is a tested 044 you can buy that is rated to a very high pressure indeed. Same pump, but tested and checked to perform to the limit. I'll be raising my pressure as a temporary measure when I get back, but bigger injectors are in the works for me. The 044 can take it, but if you go too far, the injectors will start locking and not open. Certainly raising base pressure increases injector dead time and can be an exercise in futility. All EFI pumps are susceptible to running dry death, but none will up and die straight off, provided a splash of "coolant" goes through them regularly (read, sloshing tank). I'm glad you liked the link. I think I put that thread up on here some time ago, but, I don't know where it is now. Fred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishtailfred Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Those two posts snuck in awfully quickly! Peak torque on the mazda motor that WAS in my ute : 2500, power 5000 Peak torque on the holset dohca will be between 5k and 6k and peak power will be between 6500 and 7500. In a random theoretical extreme case pp and pt could be at the same place, but not on real engine. I think it's pretty insulting to tell people that you shouldnt get too techy or the readers won't understand. Insulting to the readers... Give them some credit. If they wanna fuck with fast cars, they need to know some tech, or have a fat wallet. I choose the former. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishtailfred Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 Gaz, thanks for pointing out that danger! I added a post to my thread on diyefi.org explaining the situation with running out and gave you credit for it. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest vvega Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 why try to help people ...and confuse teh fuck out of them as wellmake things to technical and some people have no idea what your on about It's not hard. Peak torque is always before peak power. A clutch will start slipping (if it slips at all) just before peak torque, well before peak power. Peak torque is normally anywhere from 3000 to 6000 rpm , depending on the motor & mods. A motor with peak torque at 3000 might have peak power at 5500, a motor with peak torque at 6000 might have peak power at 7000 or higher. As for your previous post, I think you just made it up. So , if a supplier starts talking POWER, go somewhere else. clutchs also loose tension with centrivical force applied when you start reving high say 9k and above the forces can be enough to cause teh pp to lose clamp....... there are lots of things that can make a clutch slip and yes in gereral situations peak t is all you have to worrie about..... fred not tring to be insulting but when you have owned a few hp cars with grip you will change your mind about clutch wear drag racing is still a sport ..... a sport that requires at times brutal use of a clutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishtailfred Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 i think my clutch cost around 450, mostly for the pressure plate, the disk with 8 decent chunky springs cost 80. it holds all of my 400nm or so, and 7500rpm and clutch drops into 3rd just fine. spending massive amounts on a clutch in a street car that is for driving and fun and not drag racing is just stupid. if you wanna build a drag car, A expect it to cost, B expect it to fuck out often. A Does the clutch hold the torque you will make (400nm is what 19psi will get you on a ca18det roughly) B Does the clutch hold that torque?? C ditto D ditto E can it absorb a bit of heat and keep holding it maybe F can it absorb a lot? no G do you want your clutch or box to fail? clutch H do you want to stall and have a pig in traffic etc? dont get pucked etc best REAL WORLD compromise for street use (and i am a very agressive driver, just ask anyone that knows me) is close to stock with more clamping and stiffer springs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Posted April 23, 2008 Author Share Posted April 23, 2008 ^^^ Is that 400Newton Meters a given or should i look into it a bit more for people wih similar turbos on Ca's? Also, I like the idea of organic clucths being able to overheat and still perform after cooling down.. compared to Kevlar which fucks out. Have read that 400hp can go through some organic clucthes so I thought I would look this way.. Then I thought I would ring somwhere that makes clutchs and talk to them re organic.. and just using my original with uprate plate. Will do next week and let ya ll know how I come off.. I also need to run the numbers off my LP pump so I can find out what it flows... If I was to to buy a foam filled fuel cell I guess I would'nt have to bother with cost of surge tank or lift pump.. I might still roll this way... Was my original idea anywho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishtailfred Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 I'd say you are unlikely to do better than 400nm with your setup and the boost you intend to run. Opinions may differ. torque is roughly like this : 100nm * litres * ((15 + boost)/15) = torque you can do worse, but not likely to do much better if any. if you wanna go foam, cool I'd do it with two pumps though, but its a personal thing really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishtailfred Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 the organic clutch keeps working till it is too thin If you don't slip it, it doesnt get thin fast. If you slip it for longer than an instant, it burns and gets thin FAST If you drive well, you won't kill it If you suck, it will die fast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest vvega Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 so what diameter is yoru clutch fred and what is the diameter of his clutch i must also say ..yoru ute wont have a lot of grip ...the amount of grip you have will play a big part in your clutch life...i only say this because i remeber you commenting on you having traction issues ... pucks been hard to drive is a falacy ive had them for years and never had a issue on a street car though it is agreed if you can get away with a full face...then thats teh best option be it organic kevlar or cerimetalic a lot of it is personal preferance for feel.....your driving will just adapt to it fred there is a reason that proper race cars dont use organics and its not because they cant drive open ya mind a bit mate carbon clutches are the way of the future...its just a shame there still 8k they offer ultimate progessive grip and slip with no issues they use them in f1 racing and they are the basis or the newer progesssive slip clutched used in most of todays top fuel and funny cars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowlancer Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 One thing to keep in mind is that the clutch will be intended for a 180sx etc, which is a lot heavier than your escort. You should see better longevity as a result of less slippage required to get the car moving, surely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishtailfred Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 My weight distribution is not like you think it is... I had traction issues in all gears in the wet with bad tyres. My semi slicks held it down in the wet in 3rd sometimes, 1st/2nd never. dry was fine except 1st. it has ute ratios though. 3rd = 2nd in a more modern car... 5th = 4th... 1st is 40kph or so and useless. I NEED an rx7 box badly. I have plenty of weight behind the rear axle, and significantly reduced (and to be reduced more) weight up front. My clutch is 240mm. I imported a flywheel from ozzy to go with that over the 225 that would have been a lot easier. I did this to give myself some more heat headroom as I am hard on things. I machined the flywheel down and fitted a smaller ring gear to match my bellhousing etc and lightened it ever so slightly. I also machined the pressure plate down too, and clearanced the bell. I used Cap screws with nordlock washers to hold it down. I don't know what the ca18detr comes with stock, but i'd be surprised if it was less than 225, amazed if less than 200. pressure matters infinitely more than diameter/area anyway. if you have X cm ^ 2 and apply 1 tonne to it, you get Y friction. you can half and double X without affecting Y much at all. That is why pucked clutches work so well. Only heat is changed with area... My goal is 50/50 weight dist for whipping evo/sti arse on the track. I'm not there yet, but I'm well on my way. It felt pretty good in the twisties despite being brand new with no allignment etc. I've softened the rear etc to ensure better grip too. My clutch and fly : http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f323/ ... 0_3672.jpg http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f323/ ... 0_3697.jpg http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f323/ ... 0_3674.jpg Enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest vvega Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 puck clutches work because you have reduced the mean area and in doing do increaced the psi on any given area its just simple piston theory clamp area is what its all about btw a ca18 has a bigger diameter clutch than you its about 210 but google will tell 225 is a sr20det...and they dont fit in teh bell nordlock are stupid locktight is far more reliable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishtailfred Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 That entirely depends on the linearity of the coefficient of friction of the compounds used. 210 is less than 240 fyi .... 240 is turbo silvia, turbo skyline, turbo rx7, and now, turbo ute na skyline is 225mm, same as na ute. nordlock is brilliant, locktight is good too, hence, both are used Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest vvega Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 sorry misread ya post and just did numbers from memory as for nordlock in many of the times weve used them they have come loose on hydralic assembles...could just be the right resonant feq but we just dont use them anymore...just blue locktight glad you used both noone deserves a clutch asembly though the leg Tilton’s Carbon clutch is the absolute finest clutch package available for the EVO, benefiting from Tilton’s 18+ years of carbon racing clutch development. The 100% carbon matrix plates utilized in the clutch provide great driveability, have an extremely high heat capacity that enables the clutch to be slipped without overheating/warping and have a very low inertia for improved shifting and transmission synchro life. In addition, carbon clutches include an additional pressure plate that compensates for carbon plate wear to provide long-term clutch life. After both pressure plates are used, the clutch can be rebuilt for under $200 (standard rebuild). Weight (clutch & flywheel): 16.2 lbs Torque capacity: 860 lb-ft Tilton’s Cerametallic/Organic Hybrid clutch package was engineered for high-peroformance street applications. The hybrid clutch combines the advantages of a smooth engaging organic disc and a durable cerametallic disc with one clutch assembly. The result is a clutch that provides the drivability needed for street driving and the torque capacity needed for big turbos. Weight (clutch & flywheel): 19.1 lbs Torque capacity: 500 lb-ft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest vvega Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 tripple plate 900ft/lb of torque at the flywheel twin plate 604ft/lb of torque each plate you add in increases transmisson by a linear amount your not increasing clamp your just effectively increasing diameter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy_rich Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 what size fuel lines do all you guys use? 5/16 or 3/8? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Posted April 24, 2008 Author Share Posted April 24, 2008 That was another question I was going to ask. 3/8 / 10mm was what I was planning. Wether I need it or not is another story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forced Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 another point you might want to consider is the return to the tank.almost everybody runs the fuel return from the engine into the surge tank, you can do this if you want but this raises the temperature of the fuel you are supplying to the engine which is not good, it makes for unusual behavior if fuel temperature starts to increase. return your fuel from the engine back to the main tank, there it can dissipate heat without any effect to you system as a whole. sheepers. Ideally you want a return from the fuel rail back to the surge tank AND a return from the surge tank to the main tank. That's so the surge tank doesn't try to overflow or build pressure seeing as your lift pump has more flow than your pressure pump. It also reduces the possibility of the surge tank running dry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ke36 Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 with fuel lines are u running new ones or do you have existing lines? if you need to run new ones then u may aswell go 3/8 (10mm) line and youll never have to worry no matter even if you go for mega power later if you have factory stuff then it will most likely be 5/16 (8mm) most jappas come out with this size line from ex lancers like mine through to evos etc dunno about an old ford though 5/16th will be fine for up to 350-400hp apparently as i tried to find info when i was doing my fuel setup and got told factory stuff will be all good for that sorta power also remeber bigger lines mean u need a bigger pump to ensure you have the right sorta pressure in the lines! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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