Brakes for the Starlet

[EFI_LC]

Hi I am sure this has been talked about but I have been browsing around and can't seem to find the info I need.

 

I want some decent stopping power, so what is an easy but powerful alternative that will fit with 15" rims.

If there is a descriptive guide on how would be great too.

 

I want to add camber plates as well at some point which may mean altering the Tower to give more as it's a race car only. Whats the opinion here? 

 

[mjrstar]

this:

 

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~quibel/Starlet2b.htm

 

Much lighter weight than the setup in my KP, and probably enough it you are sub 250KPH with the right pad choice.

[Roman]

Slightly different car, but I've had a few different brake setups in the front of my car.

-Factory AA63 Celica struts/discs/calipers (Vented disc + single pot)
-Same struts with SW20 twin pots and a thicker disc
-Same struts with Nissan 4 pots and same disc

After all that, my opinion... Look at the price and availability of consumables, and how easy it will be to maintain your car as the primary factors.

Going to a wilwood 4 pot or Nissan 4 pot gives you HEAPS of brakepad options, they're about half the weight of cast steel twin pots, and are a zillion times quicker and easier to change brake pads on. It also gave a much more progressive braking feel, the single pot or twin pots gave a comparitively on/off sort of feel.

On paper going to something like AE86 struts or Cressida struts with factory vented discs etc seems like an easy option but it can be difficult to get consumables for.
It's a struggle to get GX61 front discs anymore I think.

SW20 calipers are a bit better for consumables, can get some decent pad options.
But dont expect people to have things readily in stock at the drop of a hat, if you need some new pads at the 11th hour... Like you can with most of the popular 4 pot options.

Depending on your wheel choice, a Wilwood or similar 4 pot is probably the best option for a variety of reasons. But expensive too.

Basically you need to decide, in this order:

 

-Which strut you are going to run (Starlet size, AE86 size, Cressida size. All have pros and cons)

-Which caliper you are going to run (Pick this first, make a bracket for it and then find a disc that fits available space)
-Either way, you'll need to make a caliper bracket to fit anything decent... So if it's 90% the same amount of work to fit any of the options then you might as well start with something good I reckon, that will pay dividends in the long run with pad availability / choices / etc. Pretty hard to go past Wilwood or the likes.

[mjrstar]

Give me OEM brembo or sumitomo over wilwood anything. 

 

Hey I run hilux 4 pots on the from ot my starlet with a WRX pad which has a gazillion performance pad options.

[Roman]

You can get some nice small Wilwoods though.

I'm running smallest of the Nissan 4 pots and it really limits my wheel choice because of spoke clearance. Bit of a pain.

[mjrstar]

Nice looking?

 

or actually nicely built which won't distort, and are properly made with dust boots etc?

 

 

As far as strut top mods, you have to dig in quite a bit to dial up the camber, you can get a but of extra track and camber from bugeye steering arms which are quickly becoming unobtanium, so i would be looking at offset RCA's as the thinking man's alternative these days. easier than changing strut top position and probably more effective.

 

I also believe there is a starlet upright (having had a set of both) which has more hub offset built into the strut, but not knowing the origin of each it's hard to know which was which. this may have been useful to push the camber out at the bottom and then bring the track back in with the "skinnier" struts to maintain near standard track.  

[EFI_LC]

So assuming I have Starlet legs, replacing the current brakes with bluebird ones like the link or I could get some cheap Hilux ones would be be great.

I also assume I could fit any calipers as long as I made a bracket and they matched the caliper width?

 

Will the KP60 master cylinder be up to it or should I look for something else and maybe remove the booster?

Hilux sounds like a good option, much in this?

 

Thanks, good info and good variety

[Roman]

The main thing to consider, is can you get away with widening your front track.

If yes, then convert to discs running over the front face of the hub, like the bluebird ones.

This will make your life sooo much easier as it adds the thickness of the top hat to the amount of room you have to fit everything. And there's a wider variety of potential matches for a disc that suits, like the bluebird ones.

I've got some spare facelift SW20 calipers here if you want to test fit them.

Although these are the bigger brakes compared to non facelift, it might suit you better getting the earlier / smaller / more common calipers.

[mjrstar]

If going 4 pots you will need a bigger m/c mid 90s camry are 15/16 and bolt straight up if you get the right one.

[EFI_LC]

I have been checking it out and now understand what you were talking about

As I have the TRD Fairing I can handle a wider track, I do have a question though.

It will put more load on the Starlet bearing with an outside disc so can it handle it racing?

 

Could I fit a big disc and calliper on 13" rims as I can get used race slicks for 13's,

If not I do have a set of 15x6 4 stud rims now as I figured I would need bigger rims to fit over the callipers/discs and even 16x8 but would need to restud to 5

[kpr]

also make sure you match up the master  to front and rear brake setup. adjustable bias is worth doing.   getting the bias right will make a big difference. 

 

as others say, cant get a lot of camber out of them, about 2 degrees max with camber plates in stock towers.    if sticking with the stock strut and swaybar setup. i'd  remount the lower arm  brackets on the cross member.  move them out to increase track and camber. rather than offset rca.  can also mess around with suspension mounting points, to increase caster. as factory caster is pretty weak.

[mjrstar]

Interesting point about stretching the bottom arm mount outwards KPR. I looked at that on my Kp but thought the swaybar through eyes would be unhappy? Do you use a wider swaybar off something else?

[smokin'joe]

Interesting point about stretching the bottom arm mount outwards KPR. I looked at that on my Kp but thought the swaybar through eyes would be unhappy? Do you use a wider swaybar off something else?

i recall using KE70 LCA and sway bar set-up on a starlet track-car during it's build. unsure of the outcome as the main builder fucked off to Aucks to hide from his debts.

KE70 uses bigger balljoint allowing KE/AE steering arms and struts/brakes.

i have plenty of these parts of you want to borrow and have a mock-up.

[kpr]

good point actually.   should be able to move them a bit. possibly enough to add another degree or so, to add to the 2 can get out of the top.    cant say ive done it myself.  only moved the mounting points and rack forward to correct angles from running more caster. mine runs about 5degrees caster, stock is 1-2 degree from memory.  and 2degrees camber, which works well on street tyres

 

a lot of people seem to go to the ae/ke setup as above,  so you get the adjustable caster arm and easily modified lower arm setup.    unsure if there are any benefits/downsides geometry wise going to the ae/ke setup, other than the obvious camber/caster adjustment.   maybe a backwards move as none of its setup the same. plus more weight

[smokin'joe]

a lot of people seem to go to the ae/ke setup as above,  so you get the adjustable caster arm and easily modified lower arm setup.    unsure if there are any benefits/downsides geometry wise going to the ae/ke setup, other than the obvious camber/caster adjustment.   maybe a backwards move as none of its setup the same. plus more weight

geometry aside, using KE/AE style struts/LCAs unlocks far better shock absorber options, swaybar options,steering arms etc

[Ned]

These guys are on it, but you could also call Sheldon at Rush automotive. He is the man who knows everything about KPs and can even sell you a bolt in solution if you want to do it the easy way... Plus he does a setup that fits under 13s as well I believe, not that you need it to be that small.

I had all the SW20 and bluebird parts here at some stage which was pretty good. Easy conversion also

[kpr]

geometry aside, using KE/AE style struts/LCAs unlocks far better shock absorber options, swaybar options,steering arms etc

 

can get plenty of shock options for kp strut tubes, bilstein etc. or just weld on adjustable body coilovers like most ae stuff.   kp steering arms/knuckles  are shorter than ae/ke stuff. so steering will be slower on stock kp rack. but stock steering is slow as shit, so could go so attention anyway.    kp arms have almost no ackerman. ae has a fair amount which may be of benefit, if not too much.    ae setup should have less deflection under braking due to the caster arm, if you don't use the 30 year old rubber bushes.