Never enough Hilux diff threads - axle compatability please

[zep]

Hello everyone,

Because I rush into things, I'm needing to redo my Hilux axles. I need non-ABS 6 stud items and it seems like it might be easiest to find these in a Gen 1 or 2 Surf. Out of something like this: https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/car-parts-accessories/toyota/other/listing/4993544547

I'll shorten and respline them, but will these fit my RN50 (I think) wheel bearing housings? According to the Amayama parts catalogues, the bearing housing is the same part number for both the KZN130 Surf and the LN50 Hilux.

Or will this be okay? https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/car-parts-accessories/toyota/other/listing/4991889906

There are SOOO many Hilux/Hilux-adjacent chassis numbers!

[440bbm]

 @johnny.race seems to be the resident hilux diff man and can prob tell you which you want. 

there are long ones, short ones, but any of the older 4x4 hiluxs should be fine for non abs versions.   i am not 100 but i thought the bearings  on the 4x4 ones are all the same so could quite be the same end housing

are you shortening past the length where some are undercut ?   are you neediing the full shaft dia type?  

[zep]

5 hours ago, 440bbm said:

are you shortening past the length where some are undercut ?   are you neediing the full shaft dia type?  

That would depend on the length of the axle I get, I guess. I think with my last ones, they weren't cut fully below where it gets thinner, but the machinist built it up.

[RXFORD]

All G-series non-abs is the same 6308 bearing right through. Even my '69 Hiace has the same. I'm not 100% sure about that 2001 truck in your link as I don't deal with that later stuff but the 90's one will have the correct 30 spline axle shaft you need. If you are unsure just ask them to pull an axle and givenyou the bearing number. I think the only oddball is some of the Hiaces may have had different bearing housing flange pattern.

 

If you get lucky, some of the 4x4 shafts don't have the undercut past the spline, so they are better for re-splining. I don't know why Toyota did that. Must have just been different process when making the 6stud axle vs the 5stud. 

 

 

[zep]

39 minutes ago, RXFORD said:

All G-series non-abs is the same 6308 bearing right through. Even my '69 Hiace has the same. I'm not 100% sure about that 2001 truck in your link as I don't deal with that later stuff but the 90's one will have the correct 30 spline axle shaft you need. If you are unsure just ask them to pull an axle and givenyou the bearing number. I think the only oddball is some of the Hiaces may have had different bearing housing flange pattern.

 

If you get lucky, some of the 4x4 shafts don't have the undercut past the spline, so they are better for re-splining. I don't know why Toyota did that. Must have just been different process when making the 6stud axle vs the 5stud. 

 

 

Awesome, thanks for the info - makes things a bit easier. Would definitely be useful to find those 4x4 shafts. Too bad I can't just wander around and pull them out of different cars in a yard!.

[RXFORD]

Yeh once upon a time pick-a-part and Zebra U-pick had plenty of Surfs/Hiaces to pick through but not so much these days. 

If you join up to a speedway or 4wd page on facebook I'm sure some folks will have stuff lying around. 

[zep]

I've considered buying some new aftermarket axles which are stated to be chromoly. For some reason, Howat was hesitant that they actually would be and reckoned it wasn't worth spending $400 each on them when you could get OEM 2nd hand for like $150.

[johnny.race]

Hello, what length axle do you want to end up with. Measure from the flange edge (hook the end of your tape measure over the edge/lip/end of the flange) to the end of the spline. It don't matter that you are measuring seemingly crooked sorta ... like you are measuring the hypotenuse - just measure it like explained. It's how I measure and it's so we can talk off the same sheet of paper. Nek question, what's it going into? How many wheel stud and what diameter brake hub register is it ... LN106/LN65 or KZ130 if its 6 stud or if it's 5 ... late model KUN upwards or the early type (for ex LN85/90 etc) Let me know and I might be able to help you out with identifying a suitable core or axle. In the just so you know category, sourcing then obtaining certain axle lengths is not cheap anymore neither is decent machine work. These axle don't grow in wreckers yards hardly at all now - as you're probably/or about to find out. Good luck.

[johnny.race]

On 31/10/2024 at 13:03, RXFORD said:

All G-series non-abs is the same 6308 bearing right through ...

some of the 4x4 shafts don't have the undercut past the spline ... 

I beg to differ brother ... it is my experience there are 2 different wheel bearings for the G series of the era you are talking about (I'm guessing 'up to circa 1998') and every factory G axle destined for a rear axle application featured a tapered down neck area between the shaft length and spline. The only difference (talking of the tapered down area) is the length and diameter. Just from the few I've seen.

[zep]

On 04/11/2024 at 11:25, johnny.race said:

Hello, what length axle do you want to end up with. Measure from the flange edge (hook the end of your tape measure over the edge/lip/end of the flange) to the end of the spline. It don't matter that you are measuring seemingly crooked sorta ... like you are measuring the hypotenuse - just measure it like explained. It's how I measure and it's so we can talk off the same sheet of paper. Nek question, what's it going into? How many wheel stud and what diameter brake hub register is it ... LN106/LN65 or KZ130 if its 6 stud or if it's 5 ... late model KUN upwards or the early type (for ex LN85/90 etc) Let me know and I might be able to help you out with identifying a suitable core or axle. In the just so you know category, sourcing then obtaining certain axle lengths is not cheap anymore neither is decent machine work. These axle don't grow in wreckers yards hardly at all now - as you're probably/or about to find out. Good luck.

Hey mate,

The hypotenuse needs to be 652mm - that's with a 153mm(ish) diameter mounting surface. I need my mounting surface to be about 124mm OD to fit the brake rotor over, so that would drop the hypotenuse length by a mm or two, perhaps.

It's my Gemini which is already set up for the diff, I just need to replace the axles for cert.

4x100  - I realise this requires machining the back of the mounting face.

Maximum 68.3mm spigot (the brake register?) - Because the 6 stud spigots are very large, Howat suggested he could fill it in and machine it down to the 68.3mm. Clint said this is okay for cert as long as there are receipts!

 

[johnny.race]

On 05/11/2024 at 13:38, zep said:

Hey mate,

The hypotenuse needs to be 652mm - that's with a 153mm(ish) diameter mounting surface. I need my mounting surface to be about 124mm OD to fit the brake rotor over, so that would drop the hypotenuse length by a mm or two, perhaps.

It's my Gemini which is already set up for the diff, I just need to replace the axles for cert.

4x100  - I realise this requires machining the back of the mounting face.

Maximum 68.3mm spigot (the brake register?) - Because the 6 stud spigots are very large, Howat suggested he could fill it in and machine it down to the 68.3mm. Clint said this is okay for cert as long as there are receipts!

 

A 652mm long axle is a prick of a size to make unless you; use something like a KUN series axle or build up (with weld) an early style axle (at the pointy end) with a low hydrogen rod or similar. If you are of the type of dude that does not mind someone blazing away at the pointy end of your axle then near any of the early type of axle will suffice. Their length is sufficient to get a 652mm length out of the axle. Surf would probably be the most plentiful axle around as a core axle at a guess. But something like that. I can get a 68mm diameter brake register out of a Surf style axle with no blazing (to fill) of the brake register. It's a touch and go situation (like fucking close) but you can get a firm slide fit (no slop) if you are competent. If you aren't and you rip shit and bust your way in then you'll take too much off and the axle will be fucked without resorting to welding. Yuk. A side note ... there is a difference between tacking captive a hub ring on an axle flange as opposed to filling in the center. You just need to think your way through each operation because it's friggin' hard to put material back on an axle as opposed to taking it off. The no welding way is to use a non ABS KUN series (KUN26 I think) axle(s) They have the shaft length that will allow you to obtain the 652mm without any welding at all. The down side to using KUN stuff is these style of axles are still being wrecked by wreckers so you'll be paying wrecker prices for the cores. You could use 2WD axle cores but you'd be welding up the axle flanges. The upside to this is you start with a decent brake hub register to machine. You end up with a much nicer register to center the brake rotor. LN85 (or similar) if blazing up the pointy end or KUN16 (I think) if the no blazing option is chosen. A downside for you if using any KUN stuff though is that they use a later version of bearing holder. They look similar (very) but they are different. They take different bearings and feature different bearing offset. An upside for you is that even though the bearing holder is different than the earlier stuff - it will still work with your existing housing. Stay away from the Hiace KDH (I think they are called - but you can tell the housing if you know what you are looking at) These axles will not work with your housing and bearing holder. Their wheelbearings are different and ching but they are a very HD piece indeed. I've used these axles for guys before because they are plentiful at the commercial wreckers still. I'm not offering to do any axle rework just so you know. I'm out of it for awhile doing other stuff. Don't miss it one bit. Price wise ... I'd be charging between 500 - 700 for the machine work per axle, then there'd be the costs for the small headed wheelstuds you'd be needing and the new wheelbearings. One top of this is the wreckers cut for the KUN cores. So yeah. I've never built up axles with weld or had anything to do with machining any either although I know they do it in town though. I always thought Howatt was good value when a particular length axle was required proved unobtainable through normal methods. I've seen some of his work ... he used to build the extra long axles for stockcars running extreme diff center offset. I've seen because I was contracted to build the short side for these diffs. He cuts the flange off and axle and bores it for the press fit of a piece of 4340 bar stock that he has run a spline on. He gets the entire item hardened. The reason I never got into building the pointy end of axles up with weld is because I never found anyone that could explain convincingly how exposing the thinnest point of an axle to repeated extreme heat applications was any better than welding two bits of axle together. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I hope the attached blurb provides some insight for ya. Cheers.

[zep]

Thanks for that @johnny.race. Are the KUN16 and KUN26 the same? I would have to get the bearing holders too then, right? That's another cost on top!

My understanding is that a 95-2004 Hilux/Surf axle is 732mm from the back of the flange to the end of the splines. If I took 80mm off this, would it be past the dipped part of the axle?

Despite the unknowns about the material, I am leaning back towards the chromo axles (https://www.4wdbits.co.nz/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=6066). At least I know they have no dipped bit, I can buy different lengths and the spigot/brake register is solid.

The other options is to get Howat to make me some of his flanged billet axles. $800 for a pair he said! He does this by making a non-flanged axle and shrinking a flange on. He reckons they are strong as - surely strong enough for a light car like the Gemini. The issue is that they would probably have to go through LVVTA TAC...

[440bbm]

I'd run the manufactured axles for 800 and remove the sticker and tell noone about them for legal reasons. 

Unless Clint confirms they would check them due to being a hilux diff and how they have been resplined ??

[zep]

41 minutes ago, 440bbm said:

I'd run the manufactured axles for 800 and remove the sticker and tell noone about them for legal reasons. 

Unless Clint confirms they would check them due to being a hilux diff and how they have been resplined ??

Clint is happy with Howat modding the chromo ones but said that the TAC is most probably necessary for the billet Howat-made ones.

[440bbm]

I guess it comes down to finding out if anyone's gunna know or look too hard at it. 

I'm normally pretty careful to run past the book these days but for something like that would be pretty hard to know? 

How much hp you running? Like are you going to push the diff too it's potential? 

Seems like the best method for the money  is the hardest method which blows monkey dicks

[RXFORD]

We run cut/welded toyota axles in the stockcars I crew for. Havn't broken one yet despite all the clutch dumps with welded diffs and mismatched tyre sizes. 

I also have Carlos at Steel Surgeon in Ngatea weld the cut/weld the axles when I get a narrowing job in. I just do the housing.

Its like $80 per axle from him and a weeks turn-around if that. Certing them is fine and its less hassle for me and cheaper than sending them around the country to be re-splined. 

[johnny.race]

On 08/11/2024 at 16:09, zep said:

Thanks for that @johnny.race. Are the KUN16 and KUN26 the same? I would have to get the bearing holders too then, right? That's another cost on top!

My understanding is that a 95-2004 Hilux/Surf axle is 732mm from the back of the flange to the end of the splines. If I took 80mm off this, would it be past the dipped part of the axle?

Despite the unknowns about the material, I am leaning back towards the chromo axles (https://www.4wdbits.co.nz/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=6066). At least I know they have no dipped bit, I can buy different lengths and the spigot/brake register is solid.

The other options is to get Howat to make me some of his flanged billet axles. $800 for a pair he said! He does this by making a non-flanged axle and shrinking a flange on. He reckons they are strong as - surely strong enough for a light car like the Gemini. The issue is that they would probably have to go through LVVTA TAC...

No KUN16 is the 2WD version of the KUN26 which is the 4WD. Both models have the same width differential but different brake hub register diameters. When you purchase an axle from a wrecker it will not be stripped. it will come with the bearing housing still attached to the backing plate assembly. I didn't know 4WD bits sold aftermarket axles. You can't tell the difference unless you know what you're looking at with Howatts axles. The part that is different is that if you send down say a pair of LN85 axles for him to rework ... the brake hub register will come back filled with weld. He bores the flange for a press/shrinked on fit. Then welds the end for good measure. The axles themselves feature a slightly larger diameter than an OEM Hilux axle because they started life as a oh so fine piece of 4340 bar stock. 

[johnny.race]

The stock length of the shit loads of Surf axles I've seen is all the same at 720mm +-2mm long. The max length of axle you can get out of one of those with just straight resplining is 640mm. As mentioned previously - up to and including the entire length of 720mm is available if you chose to go the low hydrogen rod build up route.

[zep]

21 hours ago, johnny.race said:

You can't tell the difference unless you know what you're looking at with Howatts axles. The part that is different is that if you send down say a pair of LN85 axles for him to rework ... the brake hub register will come back filled with weld. He bores the flange for a press/shrinked on fit. Then welds the end for good measure. The axles themselves feature a slightly larger diameter than an OEM Hilux axle because they started life as a oh so fine piece of 4340 bar stock. 

For the cost, having Howat make me some new bespoke axles sounding like the best option really. If I need to take them thought TAC then I will. Based on what you and @RXFORD have said, it's pretty unlikely that they wouldn't pass.

 

[johnny.race]

14 hours ago, zep said:

For the cost, having Howat make me some new bespoke axles sounding like the best option really. If I need to take them thought TAC then I will. Based on what you and @RXFORD have said, it's pretty unlikely that they wouldn't pass.

 

I thought the most straight forward way would have been obtaining a pair of KUN26 non ABS axles and machining them to suit. There would be no welding involved, thus removing most any reason for cert rebuttal (is that the correct terminology?) due to your axles. To ensure you get what you're paying for supply the axles along with a new rotor and new small headed wheelstuds. Ask to see their press for removing bearings. If they don't have one but you see a BFH on the bench by a whole lot of wheelbearings - remove the bearings yourself. They'll be smacking them off for sure along with nicking the journal with a cut off wheel. This fucks the axle by giving you a start point for wheel separation. Giving them a side gear from out of a head would be good also. Tell them you want a better fit than stock since they are providing a new spline. Tell them you want minimal back cut after the spline - enough to allow a smooth as transition back to OEM shaft diameter. Basically you want them to know that you know what you are after. There is a shit-tonne of shitty work out there that you want no part of. Tell them you want maximum fillet left of the OEM fillet on the back side of the flange. Failure to insist on this will see you negate alot of the OEM strength they put into the original item. I can get a PCD of 110mm (I think if I remember right) on the factory 2WD fillet diameter size (without any machining) using NICE style small headed wheel studs. The 4WD fillet is way bigger and will need machining down but only so much as it needs to be. Good luck whichever way you decide to go.