Walker.NZ Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Right so i was daydreaming at work the other day.. (haha) and i came up with this idea to run a seperate fuel rail or extra injector that runs of a seperate fuel tank containing e85 race gas. note the likely hood of me actually doing this is slim and its more something i would like to discuss. Why you ask? Well lately i have been thinking about adding a relatively large turbo onto a completely standard 3t toyota engine, and i have been thinking of ways it could be set up and be reasonably reliable, as most of you will know one of the keys to this is a good fuel system. my first idea was to run it as a blow through carburettor turbo setup, running a powerlink or similar extra injector controller and one or 2 fuel injectors pumping e85 plumbed into the intercooler piping just before the carburettor or to the plenum chamber directly on top of it to compensate for the extra fuel required when the turbo begins to make boost. Then i found out that a 2tgeu intake manifold could be used on the OHV t engine by simply changing the flange that bolts to the head, which got me thinking more about an efi turbo conversion, the idea i had with this was to run a completely unmodified 2tgeu efi system, and then to plumb in a separate fuel rail and injectors into the under side of the intake manifold which would begin to enrich the fuel mixture with the e85 as the boost levels start to rise, and once the engine is making full boost of around 15-20 psi to have pretty much completely disabled the standard fuel rail and injectors and have it running solely on the e85. Why bother? Well the biggest limitation in my eyes with turbocharging a stock non turbo engine is always going to be the standard ignition system, having the factory cast pistons and a distributor that cant retard timing as the boost levels rise is a recipe for disaster, and with the e85 being such a high octane gas it allows a little more leway in that department. i was thinking you could even get away with locking the distributor at a static timing of say, 5-10 degrees? or modifying the dizzy to accept a 3tgte advance/retard diaphragm and running perhaps a megasquirt or similar ecu as fuel only to control the efi side of things. Basically i'm just wanting to discuss this with someone who has set something up like this before, or yeah just anyone who's keen to throw there 2 cents in. my knowledge of e85 and how to set it up is very slim haha but i understand if you want to make good power, reliably its the way to go, so i'm dead keen to learn about it! Cheers guys Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 just use a link g4 or something to run the lot. that way you can get the timing correct. also can get plenty of power on 98 pump gas. megasquirts are ok, but they can have issues, and the plugs on them suck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker.NZ Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 yeah figured a link would be the way to go, aren't you running twin fuel rails on your 4agte? did you set it up to run duel fuels or just to run 8 standard injectors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyBreeze Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Just run a boost controller with a link/megasquirt and buy a flexi fuel sensor. They are pretty cheap if i recall correctly. Then the ecu senses the ethanol content and ramps boost up to suit. i.e. http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/flexfuel.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 yeah figured a link would be the way to go, aren't you running twin fuel rails on your 4agte? did you set it up to run duel fuels or just to run 8 standard injectors? mine is just running staged,(ramps up 50/50 when it comes on boost) as had 8x small injectors hanging about. but don't see why you couldn't feed the 2nd rail e85. just means a 2nd fuel system. the staging is pretty good on links. can set it up how ever you want. how much the 2nd rail supplies, when an how fast it ramps on etc. so could have it supply more e85 as boost is increased. and ramp down the primary rail. guessing megasquirt would be similar, haven't tried it though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker.NZ Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 damn links are cool haha sounds like it would work exactly how i had planned it in my head. What are your thoughts on running the extra injectors into the plenum on a blow through carby turbo setup? or what about running some kind of crazy setup like adding a fuel rail and injectors into the stock inlet manifold after the carby? have you had any experience with anything similar? if i do make some sort of attempt at this i would like to try this kind of set up first due to budget restrictions etc.. that fuel sensor sounds like a cool piece of kit, probably a good idea too, wouldn't want to run out of ethanol and then be pumping 20 psi into it on crappy fuel! haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 haven't had much to do with carb stuff. guess it could work ok with alot of messing around. by the time you get a barrel of e85 and an injector controller, probably cheaper to grab an old g1 link or megasquirt to control fuel and ignition. run it on pump gas and have a nice simple reliable setup. those old engines will be designed for pretty crap gas. so you'l get away with quite a bit on good pump gas. your idea is interesting though! but thinking you'd need to throw a bit of money at it to do it correctly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker.NZ Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 Yep i figure it will be a lot of trial and error, but im committing and picking up a 3t longblock next week to begin mock up work with. how would you go about using the ecu to control the ignition timing if the engine uses a fairly primitive dizzy? would i have to convert it to a CAS setup? i wonder if i could adapt a 4agze or similar one to the 3t engine. i think ill take your advice and get it set up nice and reliable but build it so i can easily add the e85 later on. also what stages would you normally start with and work your way through on a project like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 OK im a bit drunk but forget about e85 its gay. Pump gas and a link or something is all you need, you are over complicating things. Pretty sure there is a electronic dizzy for a 3t so just lock up the advance and use the toothed wheel it already has for a signal, grafting a ZE crank angle sender is not a option Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 ^drunken post makes alot of sense. just make sure the ecu you use can read the triggers. the old g1 links are car / make specific. and need a daughter board change if you get wrong one. which isnt really supported anymore and waste of cash if it is. newer link stuff is alot better. also what stages would you normally start with and work your way through on a project like this? if your going to do it, would not even worry about ecu at this stage, get the mechanical side of it sorted first. first thing you'l need to do a choose a suitable turbo. not a massive one. i'd suggest a tdo4l off a wrx, can pick them up for around $100. turbo -> pipework -> fuel system -> wiring -> check nothing is dodgy / death trap x2 -> then tune. check nothing is dodgy / death trap x2 i say this because most cars ive tuned have had something wrong with them. and price of tune doubles as spend just as long fixing it./ put a 1jz in it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker.NZ Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 oh ok did not realize that you are able to do that with the distributor, i have an electronic one for it already. what is involved in the conversion other then locking the advance mechanism, will i have to run some sort of wasted spark setup? a good freind of mine has a td04l turbo i can buy for cheap actually and i already have the fuel system for it. im thinking that i will go for a megasquirt at this stage, seems like it would suit a diy conversion a bit better. how do you rate the twin fuel rail setup? long term plan is to run a 1uz in the car but that is beyond my mechanical ability at this stage, e85 sounds like it will be too.. probably best to have a muck around with a less complicated conversion first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 havent seen inside a 3t dizzy. but going by what spencer said above, will most probably have a vr sensor setup in it which you can use for cas/ rpm triggers, depending on how many teeth are on the wheel. can be used as is, or modified to work. again same deal with with ignition setup, depending on the number of teeth and how they are setup, will allow you to run different ignition. dizzy, wasted spark, cop etc. dizzy will be easiest. pull it apart an take some pics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker.NZ Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 sweet mate just went down and snapped a few pics. what kind of setup's can i use with this type of dizzy? or if it needs to be modified what would be the most reliable setup to go for and easiest to tune? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eke_zetec_RWD Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 thats perfect, just lock up the mechanical advance. still use the the distributer to direct the spark. down fall is lack of antilag, but you prob not interested in that. buy the ecu last. go for a link g4, magic things. i say buy it last as that way you will get the latest model. you never know when they mite sirprise us with a g5 (doubt it will be soon though) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 from what i can see it has a 4 tooth wheel. so will only run dizzy setup. unless theres another wheel behind all that junk. how many wires? just the 2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker.NZ Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 yep just the two wires one white, one red and there's only the one wheel with the four teeth. so ill just be using it as it is with the mechanical advance locked and the ecu controls the ignition timing? ill be ordering a few bits and pieces of this website http://www.brdracing.com for it somewhere along the line and they sell the proper aftermarket trigger wheels, so if it would be worthwhile to upgrade to that i could, but i guess if the dizzy setup wont sacrifice to much power or reliability i don't really care. I may invest in a link just yet but that will blow my budget right out, but i guess i can always reuse it with a different engine. See what happens, like you say that is the last piece of the puzzle and that is a wee way off yet. cheers for the help guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 dizzy setup will be fine. yup lock the mechanical stuff, and the ecu will control ignition. link g4 would be awesome, but as you say kinda expensive for what your doing. can probably import an assembled ms2 for half the price, landed. obviously isn't gonna be as good as a g4 link, but will easily do what you want. still not loving the plugs on them though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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