johnny.race

There seems to be surge of owner bottles for sale on TM. Fuck, I am glad I am out of the market. I reckon the entry of new players into the market spells the end of owner bottles (again) Owner bottles were always prioritized last by Supagas and now Coregas has its own program happening ... it won't get any better ... if anything - they'll price and deliver in a manner so as to encourage you to ditch and join the clan.   

There is a big difference between diesels you find in WOF vehicles compared to those that are found in vehs that require a COF to operate. WOF type engines are designed primarily to be quiet, smooth and economical etc. Where as diesels typically found in COF vehicles are primarily designed for long service life, are loud, vibrate and usually feature a SAE bell pattern. You'll not fit a gearbox that came out to fit an SAE bellhouse pattern easily in most domestic vehicles. If you have never mechanic'd on heavy vehicles then understand its another world entirely from car shit. Just saying. 

I went into BOC - Palmy yesterday to get some consumables for my big red BOC machine. I decided i would give the boy a birthday and use some of the $$ I saved yesterday. I got tips and a new liner. While I was there I asked offhandedly how much a G size of Argon Shield would cost to get (rent) from them. They said approx $240 a yr rent and $160 per fill. That's sharp aye? That's cheaper than Eziswap Gas if you were going through a bottle or more a year. Competition truly does improve the breed.

$425 (incl) and swapped on the spot.  No more waiting. No more paying for re-cert. No more uncertainty of being stuck with a bottle that no one will fill or they charge you a premium because they know you have limited to no options. No monthly rent that needs to be recouped. Cheaper than having your own G sized bottle filled (yeah it is by around $50) and its able to be on sold way easier than a large size owner bottle because refills are cheaper and readily available nation wide. Yes, I work for Coregas, lol! Not. 

Just saying all the stuff that has crossed my mind during the last few months as I watched the gauge on my bottle hit the dregs. Yeah bro.  

Hey, anyone in or around Kaikohe willing to spend a little bit of time helping out an OS brother? We are looking to purchase a vehicle from out of there and need someone to look it over so I can get some unbiased feed back on a certain area of interest.  Cheers.

1 hour ago, cletus said:

Would always be the spider gears that let go wouldn't it? 

The ones I've broken have all been subjected to teenager activity,  ie big one wheel peels till the spider gear melts a bit and it and the pin goes blue and says yeah nah I'm out of here next time you drop the clutch  

I always thought it would be an axle that lets go in one of these but then again I might be a little axle fixated/biased. I have no real world first hand experience with BW75's. This all makes for interesting reading. In all honesty, most of the damage I have seen in the stuff I am asked to fix or modify has come from shock loading (I guessed you'd call it) brought about when power meets hook.

But then that said, I reckon when a certain et/mph is reached, then by nature of the beast you need to get you there - everything is stressed to destruction at some point. I've seen heads out of rides that go out the backdoor at around 200 and their stuff munts.    

Lol. I've done a couple of BW78's for Hilux's. They were got due to their price, availability, the fact they used what effectively is a 9" axle, and but mostly - got because they offered a gear ratio that could not be got easily for a G Series Lux. I know one of the trucks had a Holden V6 fitted (fuck, I bet that thing flew with Borgy in it) and I am unsure about the other. But probably an 8. Or was it the other way around? Lol. Been awhile.

Borgy's are underrated in my opinion. They maybe are sorta light' compared to other diffs but they came out in large sedans with big motors in them so there must be a semblance of strength to them. I have heard stuff is available in Aussie for them also that addresses the specific area's where they might be left wanting. Axle diameter and center section. (Lol! - what have you got left?) I'd be tempted to have a real good look at what the Aussies have got and reckon.

You missed out saying the term 9" in your blurb. Any reason?

The Hilux diff is pretty strong bro. Its used in all manner of environments harsher and more abusive than I think what you might have planned. The way the housing supports the weight of the vehicle is superior to any yank diff setup short of a floater too. 9"'s 8.8's, GM - the lot. But the problem is the readily available gear ratio selection. Specifically those down in low 3.0 region. The lux axles in OEM form are strong mate. I dunno about their LSD's apart from the fact I have come across heaps of them that don't register any more than around 50 ft/lbs torque on the bench when assessing their breakaway torque with a torque wrench. Maybe they need to be tested when immersed in LS Diff oil of something? I dunno. Just saying. I have seen spools and lockers advertised for these.

Those 8.8's look like a nice diff and have all of the right attributes an 8 cylinder car would want ... 31 Spline, LSD and a Ford stud pattern.

In the first instance, I'd run what you have.But if you absolutely have to fuck with things, I'd have a real good look at what the Aussies have got and reckon about the BW78. If I remained unconvinced after that then it would be either an 8.8 or a 9" (for me it would be a 9" because I am a Barry) Just saying.

Ahhh decisions ....

Below is a pic showing 2 x 30 spline Hilux axle ends. Same spline but following 2 different design philosophy. Fuck, I am coming across as sounding quite the tech dude aye? Be assured - this is not intended and I am far from being one. Pfft lol! Apart from the splines being formed using different methods ie. OEM Rolled (the very best) and cut, (everyone else except for OEM) look closely and you will see one axle features taper or neck down after the spline, whereas one does not. See on the top axle how the top of the spline just carries on along the diameter of the axle before blending gently back into the axle shaft. See on the bottom axle how the top of the spline tapers down to a smaller necked down portion of shaft, travels along a little bit before blending back into the axle shaft. The top axle is my work. The bottom one is OEM. In short, the factory item conforms to well understood engineering principle where as the one I cut does not.

The main reason(s) for the factory neckdown after the spline is to allow for reduction of a stress raiser that is at the root (bottom) of the splines. 30 of them, lol! This neckdown is smaller in diameter than the spline root. This neckdown also allows the axle a place to twist easier given its smaller diameter. There is more to it but this is essentially the guts of it.

Remember this pic?

The reason I chose to ignore the neckdown principle is because the only thing I have real control over when reworking the pointy end of an OEM axle is the diameter. The hardening and choice of material has already been chosen for me. And given what I know of the depth of hardening, I've chosen to go about things that retain as much of the factory strength as possible. I reckon that below a certain spline major diameter, (larger than what you'd normally find on the street) you err on the side of caution and leave the maxium amount of hardened material in place that you can. A good big man will always beat a good small man. This is how I see things and do things anyway.

Re your axles @Truenotch, I reckon the failure can be put down to material type and size. But in the main - lack of size. This is born out by you having better success after you carried out the necessary modifications that allowed you to run a larger calibre axle? Mr Howat uses nice neckdown aye? I'd say those axles are made from something like 4140 or similar. My 5c worth. Cheers. 

8 hours ago, Truenotch said:

Ahh, diff stuff. 

Funnily enough, I also ended up breaking one of these...

@johnny.race - do you have the ability to make whole axles from scratch like the ones above? Because I might need your services one day. 

Fuck did you?! Lol. I have had something to do with his stuff (Hilux axles for a specialized application) and thought his stuff was pretty good. I have some pics of the axles I am talking about and was (still are) going to post in here showing was was available locally. I don't offer to do what Mr Howat did/does. I stick to a few popular ones and that is it. I know what I know and I know what I don't

This said, I hold a view on your particular application that you might find interesting. It involves some of the pics and things you have posted and some of the ones I have too. More on this later. Thanks for sharing your stuff matey. Its an eye opener for sure.

More axle tech/shit. 3 common axles.

The shiny outer ring is the part of the axle that has been hardened. The middle is left unhardened. This is done to achieve a balance of strength and durability while still being ductile.

Two examples of spline work. Only one of them is an axle. The top item is a piece of round stock that was used to practice resplining on. The bottom piece is an actual axle. Both pieces feature 30 splines suitable for Hilux. Look closely at them and you'll note that the top piece looks a little bigger about the diameter - even on the spline portion. Given the previous picture showing the depth of hardening ... you'd want to be attempting to remove the minimum amount of material you can from an axle's diameter. 

Furthermore ... the bottom item has been subjected to a shit quality respline job. The person that cut these splines didn't ensure the cutter was aligned the the job. Pfffft. So not only was it undersized (sloppy) it had been cut outta whack too. Someone got ripped, plus it looks like some chatter was going on too a little bit. 

Two 30 Spline axles with Hilux side gears slid on.

Only one of them was a Hilux axle though. This one started life in a BW78 equipped Ford Falcon. A 28 Spline BW78 axle will just' take a Hilux pattern set of spline on it.

Notice the was minimal machining done to the BW axle diameter prior to cutting in the splines. It only just made the minimum required major diameter.  

Notice I make judicious use of the term OEM and go to lengths to ensure the reader is reminded that this/these are the type of axles i am talking about above ie. the ones issued by Ford (or whoever) in the bum or your car as original equipment. My thoughts on the aftermarket axles that I've come into contact outlined later.  

5 hours ago, johnny.race said:

Just some thoughts.

No one knows what material OEM axles are made of except the OEM and you can bet your arse - that they keep that info close to their chest. They are in the car making business to make money. One of the ways they make money is getting ahold of the cheapest material they can get, then turning it into a usable item. This is a very competitive area with massive savings to be had. So held even closer to their bosom is the recipe and cook who mixed this cheap shit all together and got it to a usable state through a proprietary hardening process. You cannot count on this OEM manufactured steel meeting any international standard ie. SAE.

Know that a SAE Steel is made to exacting standards that is thoroughly understood the world over. So much of this added to so much of that etc. Furthermore its thoroughly understood what heat treatment processes are needed to be done to a certain type of steel in order to improve its properties so that it will perform satisfactorily in a given application. This kind of stuff is well know the world over so that standards and consistency are maintained. The Heat Treatment places all know what process an SAE steel needs to meet a certain standard.

This all falls by the wayside when something comes in to a Heat Treatment place that looks like its made of this' but can't be verified as actually being so. And its right at this point here that a lot of bullshit starts involving the OEM axles and the Barry at the Heat treatment place. 

More later.

Following on from above ... When commissioning someone to shorten then respline an axle, here are some things to keep in mind. In no particular order If you are having a spline put onto the axle that differs from what was on there OEM, you don't want to be cutting in a spline whose minor diameter (check what it means on the web) is smaller by any significant margin than the OEM spline's minor diameter. Near all OEM axles are case (induction) hardened ie. hardened on the outside and left soft in the middle. Understandably, the more material removed from the 'case', the weaker the axle becomes.

Another thing, what you want to be doing is staying away from anything that involves using extreme heat at the pointy end of an OEM axle.

You want to be staying away from welding - whether that be for cutting and shutting or using a low hydrogen rod to build up the tapered area behind the factory spline in order that there is material there to cut a new spline into. Welding introduces changes in the parent material due to extreme localized heat. A lot of people know that welded axles are a bad idea but then have no problem agreeing with a machine shop to building up the axles using weld. Go figure. Ask the axle what is the difference. What did it say? Nothing. Because there is no difference... it all introduces extreme heat to the smallest part of the axle. If the axle is going to fail - chances are its going to fail there. The weld never breaks. The part where the weld is attached to the axle breaks. Sometimes the machine shop will tell you that the axle will need heat treating afterwards. I'd go somewhere else or seek a different option (different axle)

More stuff. Always ask the machine shop what they are going to use to respline your axle. Ask to look at it. If its not a cutter that features an indexable tip(s) then assume they will soften your axle using heat prior to having at it with a piece of HSS. Walk out. You don't want any heat at the pointy end. 

Ask them how many passes it takes them to cut the spline. Ask to see the side gear they need to check their work. This is not being cheeky. because if they are not using CNC and most will not for this type of work .... they will be using the apprentice. Resplining work is a balls achingly slow and repetitive process, and is very easy to fuck up. A shit respline job (as in undersized and sloppy) will translate back to you as 'excessive backlash' in your diff head. Think about it. Nek minut, its out with the diffhead chasing a problem that is not there. You paid for extra wear on your axles, lol. I am not exaggerating ... this shit happens. Don't listen to naysayers that say it don't - they have no skin in the game.

This is how you really want to approach getting your axle done .... turn up at the machine shop with your axle and side-gear. Let the guy know you know exactly what you are after and how you are going to measure it. Show him the fit on the OEM spline and tell him you want less or the same. Not more. A single pass done by the apprentice in order to save time will almost guarantee and undersized job. You won't know this when you go to pick it up unless you have a side gear to check the fit with in front of them. It all looks shiny upon uplift but shiny does not mean its right.

This is just my take on things. Your mileage may vary.

More later.

6 hours ago, RUNAMUCK said:

So you're saying the OEM axles ate made from more betterer material? 

Just some thoughts.

No one knows what material OEM axles are made of except the OEM and you can bet your arse - that they keep that info close to their chest. They are in the car making business to make money. One of the ways they make money is getting ahold of the cheapest material they can get, then turning it into a usable item. This is a very competitive area with massive savings to be had. So held even closer to their bosom is the recipe and cook who mixed this cheap shit all together and got it to a usable state through a proprietary hardening process. You cannot count on this OEM manufactured steel meeting any international standard ie. SAE.

Know that a SAE Steel is made to exacting standards that is thoroughly understood the world over. So much of this added to so much of that etc. Furthermore its thoroughly understood what heat treatment processes are needed to be done to a certain type of steel in order to improve its properties so that it will perform satisfactorily in a given application. This kind of stuff is well know the world over so that standards and consistency are maintained. The Heat Treatment places all know what process an SAE steel needs to meet a certain standard.

This all falls by the wayside when something comes in to a Heat Treatment place that looks like its made of this' but can't be verified as actually being so. And its right at this point here that a lot of bullshit starts involving the OEM axles and the Barry at the Heat treatment place. 

More later.

12 minutes ago, cletus said:

Are those axles out of the same diff that you posted the pic of the hammered ring gear?

I'd be interested to know what sort of engine and gearbox combo caused all the carnage. 

Axle chat is also interesting, over the years I've heard varying opinions on what is the best way to shorten axles, I had one done that had welded axles- Terrano ends with bw center, never gave any trouble, it only had 3.8l of moo power though  

 

 

No Clint, that head was (still is here, lol) a 9"  That axle above is from an 8 and 3/4 Chrysler. This will bring warmth to your soul as it did mine, Clint ... Chryslers did the damage in both cases. Both early Hemi's, both with 671's but don't quote me on that because I know there was an 871 in the mix with one of them - but unsure if it made it onto the engine. Glides and mechanical fueling ... you know the story mate - direct drive black belt shit. I love axle talk too. I like hearing about other peoples experiences and passing on my own. Its a specialist area for sure and one where all sorts of shit can happen. Over the years of doing this sorta stuff, I have formed some conclusions about things based on what I have done, seen and read.

These are my people.

Churr

26 minutes ago, flyingbrick said:

well you said that it came in out of a bro's car.

I figured you were either A, saying it came out of a mates car or B, being racist, lol.

No, you are right, Brick. He's a very close bro. He looked after my whare' and whanau when I used to contract offshore. But he knows the rules about shed space. He has his own shed. I'm a half caste too. I deride all colors and castes equally, lol!  

30 Spline. Yeah, they are big. They are bigger than a 28 spline 9" or BW is, and probably close to the same diameter as an OEM 31 Spline Bronco 9" one might be? Being short makes them look a fat too. but they are reasonable sized axles even in OEM form.

I am in the diff business bro, they only bring their diff shit here - not their cars. The first problem with Cut to Fit (ctf) axles is the fact they have 30 little stress risers and 30 little troughs where the material has been removed - running down and away from the business end. 

39 minutes ago, RUNAMUCK said:

So you're saying the OEM axles ate made from more betterer material? 

No. I reckon there is more to it. 

8 minutes ago, ajg193 said:

I'd assume OEM axles are only hardened where needed and if you go and cut them shorter you will be in an area with different properties (ie the outside 5mm might be hardened on OEM, and maybe not hardened where the shaft increases in diameter). When you go and cut it short and remove 5 mm from the diameter you would need to re harden and temper them to get the right properties.

I've been to that place you talk about. It is my experience you'd wanting to be revising your figure from say 5mm down to somewhere between 1 - 1.5mm max though if you want to retain any semblance of factory engineered strength about things. It is further my experience that heat treating  any OEM axle and expecting a win is snake oil. Just my thoughts bro. 

The shiny outer is the depth of case hardening, the dull stuff - not so much.

This came in from out of a bro's car. There is a lesson here for those attempting to skimp in an area than rarely takes prisoners when it decides its had enuff of you. The only way his bacon was saved was through adherence to a scheduled maintenance/regime. This was picked up then. He was using these (wayy) outside of their intended design application as can be seen by the various other bits and pieces that came in with it. Yup, a Cut to Fit 8 and 3/4 MoPar with aftermarket bearing. Check out the drive studs in the flange. When they get this big they are not wheel studs anymore. When they are this size, they fill all of the hole in a mag wheel hole and use hardened washers and nuts to secure the rim. The studs are about the only serious parts of the entire assembly :)) Lol!

I've cut a few of these over the years. It doesn't matter what brand they are, they (for the most part) all cut the same. I feel there is a difference between carrying out machine work on cut to fit axles compared to doing the same thing to OEM factory stuff. Some of these cut to fit ones have not much better than silver cheese in the middle of them. I don't think anyone guarantee's them for off road use. I dunno what this one was like in the center as he only brought it in to show me and for me to assist him with measuring up for the new ones.

He originally wanted me to cut and untwist ... nahhh!! He stumped up for some through hardened ones and didn't fuck around.

This has been done to death. Cheers to the clip. I knew you'd been in there with your fly cutter bro, hehe. I'd love to see a pic of those spacers when you can, @flyingbrick Its not an aftermarket retainer is it? The reason I said 9 holes and a register was so that whatever factory design engineering went into the BW - it could be replicated on the Ford. 

I measured an earlier bracket than yours (but same application) and it came in a 7.5mm thick. Yours looks thicker than this. Hmmmm.  Anyway, ta for your post. 

15 hours ago, RUNAMUCK said:

Yeah a number would be nice please ...

Can use 304 instead of 308, I've used both and there is no real difference I could see. Here is the thing about all of this stuff ... hardened toyo Iron does not respect any cutting tool, hehe. They are all rounded off the same after the first couple of splines.

Its sounds like Dad is going to have a go at it with a single point cutter? Tell Dad that he needs to cut splines that are 90 degree's (included) and that this will give that to him ie. 45 degree's on each side of the vertical = 45 + 45 = 90. You cunts know all this.  Tell him not to sweat it re the cutter having a sharp point as long as its a 90 degree include one. It can't be too sharp if you know what I mean. 

This is a shortened 28 spline BW78 axle modded to fit a narrowed 9 inch. Behind it is a momento from an absolute beast!

I wonder if that spacer you talk of featured 9 holes and a register? Because if it didn't (and don't get me wrong - I respect the hell out of Mr Rattrie) it would make for an inferior fit up compared to what BW came out with in OEM form.  An adapter plate would more accurately describe it. But after having a good look at things and understanding what is involved - I would not be a fan full stop for removing any material from an already light looking aluminum caliper bracket.  I would be interested to see how stuff like that actually goes through cert.Sorry @flyingbrick nothing personal, just saying what I reckon about things. 

On 26/02/2019 at 21:34, Alfashark said:

This was one of 2FD Sqn's Macks. That red TAC sign on the front bar indicates it was one of theirs. It was based out of Linton in Palmerston North. I think later on this truck along with its 2 brothers was seconded to 25 Engineer. These fucking things had seat setups for carrying troops in the tray. The harshest ride known to man and the longest drop when told to jump out/off. Ahhh, the glory days of the early 80's ... fit, single and not a friggin care in the world. 

oh fuck - sorry. Its a little square Kyocera one .... i don't have the number on me but can get it if you need. Its a bolt through one. About 1 cm square and probably around 5 or 6mm thick. I go through the expensive little fuckers but ..... they are wayyyyy cheaper to use than HSS and all the blunt hassles that come with its use. I am not a machinist ... no formal training or anything. Self taught. Asked heaps of q's to the right peeps. Passion and perseverance will match formal training IMHO.