Hyperblade

Stick with J160, becoming more popular which is good for parts and some amount of crossover with other variations of it is good. It's a good box. And if worried about torque just do the fix the Silvia guys do something internal which I can't remember specifics of.

On 24/02/2023 at 17:57, kpr said:

If you wanted to try something in the meantime,  you could take the spacers out of the plenum.  Have some thick head flanges cut to space the manifold out at the head end, lengthening the intake runner.   Maybe a couple at 25mm  so can stack them see what works best.  I'm guessing around 50mm would do the trick. Maybe could get them cut from something for some thermal insulation at the same time.  

That's actually a really simple idea to increase the length.

But it would affect my bracing underneath and way more then i want to do to it at the moment.

My plan is to 3d print the top half and straighten up the throttle body + intake for the experience in doing that without having to take the whole manifold off and I want to see if it actually does make any difference.

Then I can get stuck into the ITB's which i know will be much better, but are going to take a lot of time playing around with redoing wiring.

16 hours ago, kpr said:

runner diameter being a bit oversized  isn't actually much of an issue.  unless its way oversized.  
length is probably an issue though. 

you can see its doing something weird on the dyno sheet, which is most likely the intake runner length.    looks like its wanting to work at 8500. which makes the dip at 7500.    if the runners were a bit longer (most likely factory length)   so it was tuned for 7800-8000rpm  would  make more power.   its something that can be shuffled with the cam timing to a point also. your tuner probably should have already tried that though.
 

Ideally get those itb's on and make the intake runners way longer.   nothing off the shelf will get you there either due to fitment issues, or too hard to make. 

 

I'm pretty sure it's quite a bit larger then than stock, but hard to remember now as haven't had it off in a while.

Dave mentioned the same thing about the uptick at 8500rpm, 

He estimated it's down 10 to 20hp at the top end, compared to what he's tuned before with stock manifolds.

ITB's require a bit of a rewire so due to being electronic and pedal changes so I'll plug away at it all and get it to a stage when I can then bolt them on at the right time and see how they go. But my quick measurements show I need to get them as close to the heads as possible.

Thanks for the feedback by the way, really appreciate it!

On 21/02/2023 at 21:56, kpr said:

Oh and the intake plenum size.  probably aren't loosing any power there, unless your loosing some  effect from the intake tube.  bigger plenum damping out the pressure waves, unsure how much of a thing that is.    There will be a little bit in getting the intake tube the right length and size. but wouldn't expect big numbers  from it. 

Agree on plenum size, everything I have read is that you can't really go too big.

But I do agree it's Intake system related.

Which is not unsurprising to me, I knew when I put that manifold on that it wasn't great, but it was the easiest one to do at the time and I knew I could fix it long term by going to ITB's (always the intention).

To be clear it's issues are

• Build quality was shocking, chunks out of the trumpets (which I had to fix)
• Everything was rough as guts
• The runners are HUGE
• Their own thermal gasket they provided actually blocked off the top of the port (yes seriously), so i used the standard honda one.
• It doesn't actually match the head ports perfectly (slightly larger if anything)
• The design of it is clearly more aimed at turbo cars.

The throttle body is 74mm, 

• I don't think that's the issue.
• Although it's worth pointing out just to show how bad Skunk 2 is, that the gasket that comes with it doesn't fit correctly for the IACV port to their own manifold.

The intake filter and pipe

• The filter doesn't really have an internal velocity stack, and I did my best to improve it, but it wasn't a good job.
• The pipe has 2 bends opposite each other, then a 3rd bend after the throttle body for the air to get into the manifold velocity stacks.
• Most Hondas run a significantly longer intake pipe, mine is very short. Length helps the air to build up velocity before encountering obstructions like throttle body, corners etc.

The shitty pod filter velocity stack, bends and shortness of the pipe means the air is moving very slowly and never gets a chance to speed up so by the time it gets to the manifold and with that the runners being larger than they should be, the air never gets the velocity that the high RPM needs to fill the cylinders.

That's my current thinking anyway.

30 minutes ago, kpr said:

Yeah you can see  the actual timing (yellow) misses the target (pink)   by a little when you get back on the gas.  but by the time your at full throttle its matching the target. 

top one is your current  "vvt"  map.    since race car and assuming you dont care about fuel economy,  I'd  run something more like the bottom.  or a less aggressive ramp at least.   so your always on target when get back on the gas.  Not really much of an issue in your case but thought would explain it better. 

 

Ive compared mine, which essentially mimics at 1j/2j   setup vs @Roman daves  1nz setup and seems to react pretty similar.   yours seems a little faster.   either a honda thing or the control is a little better in g4x

That's brilliant, I understand what your getting at with the changes now. Even if it was 15 to 25 (assuming degrees) then it would take a big chunk of not being on target out of that curve.

58 minutes ago, kpr said:

I was going to comment  about probably changing the cam timing map. so  it doesn't go to zero cam advance when throttle is closed.   due to the mechanical time it takes the cam to re advance when get back on the throttle.
but looked in the log and looks like it keeps real well. nice one mr honda.  so isn't really that much of an issue. possibly a little more crisp on the throttle if changed it.

As for  what cam timing it needs. will need to be done per engine.   unless 100% stock to 100% stock.    as changes to the intake and exhaust will change what cam timing it likes.
The shape of  the cam timing map  looks  right.    starts to retard at high rpm etc

This as part of the log   @Hyperblade  posted.   cam stuff at the bottom

 

 

The vvti control works real well even on my old g4 link. 

 

Thanks for posting that screenshot, helps me understand what you are all talking about!

15 minutes ago, cbDrift said:

Had to sign up just so i could reply after i got your youtube reply and saw you uploaded your map.

Its a very similar tune to my jdm civic k20a timing wise - very close all the way through under load - a few deg more at the top end than me but im paranoid about not wanting any knock. generally within 2ish deg of mine under full load with mine running a bit less than you 99% of the time

But your cam angle map is totally different to mine - and on these k20a engines - it makes all the world of difference getting that right in all conditions with an n/a engine.

i gained a "buttload" (technical term) of top end when i got the target cam angle to actually match up with actual angle using this target cam angle map on my haltech

 

this is from my jdm type r k20a in a 2005 civic ep3 - the engine is untouched apart from intake and injectors and a decat

the difference between accurate cam tracking and having it waffle around vaguely in the range of the target is amazing - I got a tonne of drivability and my top end power when i had good control of the cam angle. 2deg can make a difference to how the car feels when driving - and cold oil heavily affects the cam angle tuning vs up to temp oil.

having said that - it looks like the link handled pid stuff totally differently to the haltech so i have no idea how accurate the link will track the target cam angle.

Either way - if this helps to improve your drivability - mint!  if it doesnt - just as mint

Have fun - your starlet is an awesome build and thank you for posting your map to take a look at

I'd be really interested to see how accurate the link is able to track the target cam angle with the actual cam angle (even a screenshot of the two traces overlaid)

Welcome to the forum!

Unfortunately your talking way over my head, i'm just not up to speed technically on all of that stuff as much as I want to be, I just haven't had the time to really sit down and understand it all and be able to tweak it.

I should mention Dave said he usually has the timing backed off a couple of degrees.

The other thing to mention is that on the Dyno Jon struggled to get temp into it including the oil (5w40) which sat at about 80 degrees if i remember correctly (on track oil is hitting 120+)

Due to:

• The sensor reading 9-11 degrees lower than what the engine temp actually was
• The electric water pump control just not working well at all (hence I put in new thermostat + bypass hose)

I can do you one better though, here's the full log from session 4, i basically have everything logged as it has heaps of memory.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1x3suRFYwUip95PEAx97Et83RMrr0hbNC/view?usp=sharing

I haven't updated the main thread, but current plan is to redo intake piping to be straight which means new 3d printed top half of the manifold so I can straighten throttle body, this should at least eliminate that from being a possible issue as I think the triple bend for the air to get into the runner is actually the main issue vs the plenum volume. I want to do that first as it's just keeps niggling at me(and I would like to know if I'm on the money or not around that stuff) and and it gives me more time to plan the quad throttles to get best results.

Take a breath, step back, study it, think about it objectively what other issues are going to crop up if it's not positioned where you were originally planning e.g. steering, cooling etc.

Think back to your original goals with the swap, will it still meet those?

Now's the easy time to pull out if you think it won't work. If to fit it you need to cut up the car, that's a pretty major step and easily spirals into a lot of other things.

Whichever way you go I'm all in and following!

This is going to be so fucking awesome, and for what your doing which is not an all out racecar, makes a lot of sense.

And even if it doesn't work out, I'm along for the ride!

You are mid mounting it right? 

7 hours ago, Roman said:

It's been bloody awesome fun alright. 

But also it's a bit tapped out now. 
You cant get any 1NZ cams bigger than 264 deg, and there were only "admin" sorta jobs left to do like sort out an air filter or tidy it up. 
Things which made the car nicer but fundamentally didnt alter the recipe any further.

I'm actually really happy to end a project on a high note.
It seems a lot of projects end up being sad to look back on if they ended when a car was crashed, or motor blew up, or sold to have kids or whatever.
This has just been grin factor 10 nearly all the way through.

Also I've managed to infect some other people with the concept of vitz pesting, and the parts from this car are going to be used in some cool setups.

Also worth noting that back when this car was standard I came incredibly close to just giving it away as I no longer used it. 
What an absolute adventure it's been on, at the tail end of it's life instead. 
How good! 

 

I think what you have done is bloody amazing! 

It's been so cool to watch as you have progressed with the development and tried things.

I agree it's reached it's natural conclusion without a lot more major work.

I don't believe you can ever work on 2 project cars at the same time and give them both serious attention, so it's going to be awesome to see you get back into the carina.

10 hours ago, Roman said:

Ahh man there's always something eh!

Drive from last shakedown looked good, stoked to see it's making steady improvements. 

Would love to check out your car one day, love it. 

Anytime your down here in Chch (or anyone else who wants to see it) just give a yell.

Clutch:

So the aftermath of a clutch spring letting go.

Bit's also made a small hole through the bellhousing.

That was a new Exedy HD S2000 clutch, there were warnings on the internet about using them, I thought it would be ok as light weight car, and previous Exedy with the BEAMS handled a ton of abuse.

Wow was I wrong, DO NOT use this clutch, after taking it out we could see wear on the posts and clutch springs where they were binding, it's just not designed correctly for the loads.

Decided to try an Action Clutch (Considered Xtreme Clutch, but had a friend who's plate exploded on his car and made a bigger mess...) this time, at least the springs shouldn't be able to come out...

Adapter Plate/Flywheel

So while we were swapping that we found the input shaft bush was showing a lot of wear and was no longer concentric. 

I run a standard adapter plate (with flywheel to suit), they say on their product page "Precision machined from 6061 this adapter features perfect dowel pinned alignment and all hardware needed."

Of course when I went to bolt it on one of the dowel pins wouldn't go in, I was in a rush for various reason and it become a one is in, that should be enough...

Turns out yeah no, you really do need 2, we think movement between gearbox and engine has caused it to wear, which damaged flywheel where the bushing sat.

The adapter plates also don't have a huge number of bolts holding everything together, especially at the bottom where their is the highest load.

Adapter Plate

Originally the gearbox bolted up to the adapter flange with 3 bolts (yeah I wasn't to impressed by that at the time, but a lot have been sold, so figured it would be ok), it's now been all modified to have 7, and more coming in from the engine side. We also managed to get one bolt at the bottom to go all the way through from the gearbox to the engine sump bracing (highest load). It won't be moving anywhere now...

We machined the flywheel to fix it up and put a proper bearing in it (2032 6 series - I think from b series), so that should also take some mis alignment better.

Engine mounting points, top of adapter plate sits above the top ones.

Gearbox Shifter Linkage
For any one interested, here's a good photo of shortening a gear lever linkage on an Honda S2000 AP1 gearbox to move it forward which i took while it was out.

18 hours ago, xsspeed said:

lush, did you snap pics of all the cars too? would be cool to associate engine bay to particular gen/class of touring car

Na was way to hot for my brain to think of smart things like that!

On 27/12/2022 at 00:16, Roman said:

Here's an interesting one 

So I happened to snap a lot of pictures of the intakes on the old touring cars at Scope Classic on the weekend.

If you like seeing endless dollars spent on fancy carbon you can view them here...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/vXC7axnsmoXEaNXw5

5 hours ago, yetchh said:

 

Ok bro cheers, do I name drop? 

 

Just say Ben sent you.

Just be clear with your requirements about when you need it done, and your expectations on quality (long term don't want it to happen again) vs speed (e.g. just fix it as cheap as possible now).

22 hours ago, yetchh said:

Is he an exhaust company? 

Not a dedicated company, but he has many many years building exhausts and a lot of experience in the area, he's done full systems for our race cars, and can rebuild mufflers from scratch. He works for himself so is reasonably priced. He's done a wide range of cars from my little starlet to ferraris.

John at Canary Automotive will be able to sort you out, he's in woolston.

On 23/12/2022 at 16:57, Roman said:

I remember reading something from a BTCC guy who said they looked into ram air type setups and said there was no point. 
As in ideal conditions its only a millibar or two of extra pressure, at maximum speed. Then you lose that as soon as you are following someone else. 
 

I don't believe they didn't use it, you only have to look at the insanely complex carbon intakes across a wide range of touring cars that they created for many $$$ and look at how much $$$ they spent on the cars, your telling me they wouldn't have done it for say 5hp more? Agree running behind someone you lose the effect, but you don't want more hp when your at the front to stay in front? Doesn't compute in my brain. but i've been wrong before...

On 23/12/2022 at 17:17, Spencer said:

Yeah I think its just for clean/cold air, but the later 90's cars all seem to intake down from the bumper, making me wonder if the grill is just a bad spot for some reason. But then the later ones all have magic duct work up front also that they tie into.

Just a excuse to look at BTCC engine bays really /ling

 

You will get high pressure zone just above the splitter/spoiler where the air is hitting the air dam but with a trade off of potentially higher air temps (as closer to the track). If you think about the huge amount of work to duct the intake to that area, it must have been worth all the effort/$$$ in performance to get to that high pressure.

This is a good article on it all from Willem Toet (F1)

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/air-ducts-down-earth-guide-motorsport-applications-willem-toet

12 hours ago, Roman said:

Got this sorted, and it's awesome. Thanks again Stu! 
The extra room gained is incredible.



So the next thing to decide is how a filter or airbox or whatever is actually going to work. 

On the engine bay side I've been tossing up some ideas but not 100% sure yet. 
However ahead of the radiator and crossmember, I think it's going to be best to completely divide the engine air and radiator air intakes. 
Looking at the front grill area, there's a decent cross sectional area available through the holes in standard grill. More than enough to feed the motor. 






So sketching it up / cardboarding it up, hopefulling something like this works 






Printed out a test piece for one side and fitment is nearly there. Should be good! 

For the intake if you can try and get it to expand gently over the entire length up to the stacks.

e.g.

And ease the radius from the bumper into it, even if you have to reduce the entry of intake down.

It should increase pressure over the the throttle plates at speed, giving you a boost in power if you do it right.

9 hours ago, Roman said:

 (apart from avoiding blowing up the motor) 

So that's a good point... What's your sump/pickup like, as on those slicks you will run the very real risk of having all the oil disappear.

I think your going to be pleasantly surprised at how much performance difference there is with them compared to even good semi slicks.