VintageSpecial

OK, here's a stupid 'this idiot knows nothing about bikes' question. Are bike boots flat on the bottom? I've been putting about on the bike getting the feel of it. I think I have hit all gears now but find it hard to tell at my slow speeds! But I find changing gear tricky because the boots I wear (steel cap work boots) have a heel and the heel catches on the peg and I can't get my toe under the gear shifter. Are the heels shorter? Maybe I just have tiny feet! I've cleaned it several times now, with a water blaster and degreased and most of the mud has gone but it's still pretty filthy. I don't think it had been cleaned in ages. I checked the automatic oiler today as per the manual and that's all fine. I was a little worried it wasn't working but it is all good. What oil should go in the chain oiler? Also when it comes to restoring time what do people do with rusty front forks? I hear it is possible to get them re-chromed? Is there a recommended place? I put an update on my YouTube channel. A little about the car. Was working on the timber frame but ran the bandsaw blade into a screw which killed it so I did some on the bike instead while I wait for a new one to arrive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvFvn5zCyQs Simon

Hi all, it was mentioned I should start a thread on my KT250 project. I don't really need another project as I am still building my Riley Brooklands car but a bike has been on my mind for a while since 1. I am running out of room for cars, 2. I don't want to do another car since the process of getting them on the road is getting harder all the time, 3. as my taste in cars keeps getting older the next one would have to be a bloody London to Brighton car and 4. getting all your parts from overseas is starting to get very expensive. So I considered some kind of vintage bike type project. Something for me to learn about bikes, something to learn to ride on and someone to just put about the garden and neighbours fields on. I don't really want to ride on the roads, it's dangerous enough in low slung 30s sports cars I find. Talking to a friend who has some knowledge of such things (and owns bikes) he said vintage bikes aren't ideal for various reasons and not that great to ride. He suggested a classis trials bike like a Montesa, Bultaco or Ossa. Those are expensive and hard to find and you still have that 'parts from overseas' issue. On TradeMe I saw a book about Trials riding by Don Smith and bought that just to learn more about it. I ended up chatting to the seller about such things as he sold other parts for bikes and asked him if I was looking for an old bike where is the best place to look other than TradeMe and Beaded Wheels. He more or less said 'have I got a deal for you' and you can guess what happened next. So now I own a 76 (I think) KT 250 Kawasaki. It's a project but it is mostly all there and original but a lot needs doing. It came with some parts and manuals and more parts should be coming too. Has 4000 something on the speedo (which is in miles). I wrote about it in the bike appreciation thread but basically I checked it over, tested spark and compression and so on and that the oiler seems intact and working and got it started. That was actually easy, took 3 kicks! The clutch was clutch but following some advice in that thread I worked on unsticking that by rocking the bike back and forth in gear and once it felt like there was some slipping there I started it up and chucked it into gear. That worked and I was able to ride around the garden in first. I think I did manage to find 2nd once but as a new rider I am just getting the hang of things and am still working on the likes of not falling off and not over doing the throttle at the moment. Plans so far, putt-putt about to get the hang of it then eventually strip it all down, learn how it works and rebuild it nicely I guess. But for now I am busy making the ash timber frame for the car then the aluminium skin so am not sure when this will happen. It gives me time to find parts and things I need, a lot of which are available locally which is one reason I went for this bike. From what I understand it wasn't a great trials bike in the day. Or rather others did better. But they were good farm bikes making them popular here. Here are some as delivered pics. Simon

I used something called Kephos a long time ago. Note the difference in spelling. It was clear and pungent smelling and it was the best stuff I have found to keep bare metal from rusting. Was recommended by a panel beaters to rub onto bare steel until you were ready to paint and it worked very well. Last time I tried to get some some years later I found it had been renamed to PAINT GRIP 253. And it was really hard to actually find somewhere to buy it from as they only sold huge quantities. This is that stuff: http://www.solvents.net.au/index_htm_files/PAINTGRIP 253 (212997).pdf Searching though you find other things called Keyphos (although confusingly that is now called Fosgard-109) which looks more like a paint you spray onto things? https://sandwell-uk.com/coatings/fosgard-109-lightweight-coating/ Is that the stuff you mean above? I have also recently started using cold rolled steel instead of Zintech and found it much easier and nicer to work with and hammer and much better to weld too as long as you really clean it first. I do have a lot of problem with bare steel surfaces rusting in my shed though which is annoying. Simon

That is very handy to know, thank you! My situation was for a car with no papers at all so slightly different. It's all a bit daft trying to prove no one has an interest in a car which doesn't exist in the system. Simon

Hopefully you don't need it but if they ask for a letter from the Police showing they have no interest in the vehicle (i.e. it's not stolen) they no long give out that information out freely. I had to do an OIA request to get it! And yes, even the Police thought that was stupid but it was the only way. My advice with the paper work is find a test/compliance place who has done it before and can do it for you. When I tried to do it myself it was a massive run around and I got no where. Simon

Go for it! I think I have found someone who can custom make what I need now. Just working through the details/drawing plans for them.

I am in the VCC but that doesn't help in this case. The problem is this isn't a simple core in a shell like an Austin 7 say. The entire shell forms the outer part of the radiator and the core is soldered in. It's all one piece. There are no originals of this kind around as the car was rare in the day. Somewhere between 100-200 made. The last one I heard of that came up was a while ago in the UK, needed re-coring and was 12000 UK pounds! And I have an original saloon one but it can't be simply cut down as they need to be totally deconstructed, then cut then an new front piece welded on at the bottom to go over the dynamo. The metal you need (nickel-silver) to patch it isn't easily available and doing all that is as difficult as building a new one anyway apparently. I did ask the experts about that option and it isn't really viable. I have talked to A1 Automotive cooling who supply aluminium cores and can also make top and bottom tanks to suit. So I am prototyping something up later (with cardboard and hot glue!) to see what fits then I can send measurements/pictures to them to see if they can make something. Following the advice above and that from someone I know in the UK who restores pre war cars letting the experts do the welding is probably wise! Cost I imagine is still several thousand dollars but that's better than several tens of thousands on an accurate replica for now. Funny thing with this car when done is it needs to be inspected by the VCC for them to issue a DOMAS to say it's a true replica. Only by the time I have done it I will be one of the most qualified to make that determination! I have already checked that for certification having a modern core inside a replica shell is fine. It's not changing the form or function of the car I guess. All good fun, but don't think I will do another! Simon

The other thing would be just practice my aluminium TIG welding, make top and bottom tanks to suit from sheet and weld them to a suitable core as people have suggested. It seems cores are available and able to be cut down and looking at the pictures of the radiators suggested that's how they are made. I am sure I can get pipes/filler necks ready to weld in too. I've got this far not knowing what I can't do and just trying it anyway so might as well continue in that way! Simon

That's a good idea, thanks. I also thought ATV or Motorcycle might be options. The engine capacity on the Riley is 1100cc.

Thanks for the suggestions. For now I am OK with the internals not looking correct so these are all good ideas. I do have TIG. It's how I welded the steel parts of the shell together. I tried to do it with no filler and the few places I did need it I made my own rods from the base metal. I've never quite got the hang of ali with it though so this might be a good opportunity to learn! That link to the Honda one is most useful, it gives me a good starting point. I don't know much about modern cars so wouldn't know where to start without suggestions. The originals didn't use honeycomb apparently. Well, according to one good source I have. But over the years people ended up using them as they are a 'vintage car' thing. The original saloon car one I have is long wavy vertical strips. Not quite a diamond core though. Hard to replica with fake mesh but one everything is painted black and the shiny stainless stone guard is put in front it does hide things to some degree. You can see the original saloon one in the pictures. Any core making is expensive since it is very labour intensive and a specialised skill of course. I am looking at that in the future though. In which case I should have made my shell from brass to start with as it is far more corrosion resistant to steel. The Riley core is tricky since it's curved rather than flat too. I see you can even buy them on Aliexpress. I am not likely to do that but it is handy since the ads give you the overall dimensions which give me something to work on: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002393547729.html?_randl_currency=NZD&_randl_shipto=NZ&src=google&memo1=freelisting&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=708-803-3821&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&albagn=888888&isSmbAutoCall=false&needSmbHouyi=false&albcp=9594012230&albag=94205055490&trgt=313429380675&crea=en1005002393547729&netw=u&device=c&albpg=313429380675&albpd=en1005002393547729&gclid=CjwKCAjw_ISWBhBkEiwAdqxb9jC0d4n8eHZ_UZEbnBBbwDUg5dbsOkouipsqzbJUoAC1EFAjfuu0ehoCEjAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&aff_fcid=a3ee814f5d6e459290cf19f8821ce9c9-1656885162622-08229-UneMJZVf&aff_fsk=UneMJZVf&aff_platform=aaf&sk=UneMJZVf&aff_trace_key=a3ee814f5d6e459290cf19f8821ce9c9-1656885162622-08229-UneMJZVf&terminal_id=83a9b45af66c49758d39670c867fb18b&afSmartRedirect=y Simon

Oh, should add I am based near Levin/Wellington. Often it's easier to take things to show someone what you need.

Does anyone know of who can make custom radiators or modify off the shelf ones for a certain application or of a small modern core that can be modified? My Riley radiator would originally have been a nickel-silver shell with a special ribbon style core set inside it. The shell forms the outer parts of the radiator itself. Nickel-silver is not available in NZ easily (and it's not cheap!) so these days people use brass then have it plated. The cores are specially made (by Replicore) and those of the correct pattern aren't cheap as they are hand made. They would then assemble everything into the shell with the sides of the shell forming part of the tanks. The whole things ends up as one piece. The Riley is especially tricky as everything is curved and it has a circular cut out in the bottom to fit over the dynamo which pokes out the front of the engine. It is possible to have one made but cost is somewhere over 20k I think. They can't give me a full quote as it is very uncommon and mainly comes down to how much time it takes them. My car is only a replica so it's not worth spending that (now anyway). So as a cheaper option to get the car finished and drive-able I have made a fake steel shell and want to put a modern core in behind it. Fake mesh will cover the hole on the inside and there is also a woven stainless steel stone guard that goes on the front to further disguise things. The shell gives me the shape I need to build the rest of the bonnet/body around it. It's a bit hard to see in the picture but the angle on the sides of the shell match the angle of the chassis rails where they start pulling in so the bonnet sides are flat but angled if that makes sense. I haven't made the hole for the radiator filler neck yet. Main problem with the core is very limited space. You can only fit a core about 13 1/2" by 13 1/2" in there and there is only 3-4" space in front of the engine (340mm x 340mm x 75mm). Other complications are this is a thermosyphon engine (no water pump) but I might fit a small hidden electric booster pump somewhere. Also there is no cooling fan. Eventually I might get a proper core and have it fitted into my steel shell which can be nickel plated. Does anyone know of a small modern core that might fit or can be easily modified to go into that space in the mean time? My original though was something like an original Mini one might work? It would be nice to run the engine for more than 30 seconds as that's all that is stopping me being able to actually drive the car. Thanks, Simon

Yep, schemes like that would get rid of cars before they get a chance to become classics I guess. But then again are modern cars likely to be viable as classics in years to come? They are built more like appliances to be replaced these days than machines to be maintained. As for lobbying I know the VCC do try. Not sure about other organisations or clubs but I guess so? Hot rodders? That must be a sizeable group. I just want to get my vintage done so I can drive it before 1, petrol gets too expensive/goes away, 2 someone suggests getting rid of 'bad' old cars and 3, while I can still get in and out of and actually fit in the bloody thing! Simon

There is a group for vintage car owners and it doesn't seem to help much. The VCC accepts any cars over 30 years old though, anything recent would be classed as a Post 1980 Vehicle. They are trying to get the 6 month WOF requirement removed for vehicles over a certain year which is good. The VCC definitely know about the issues around getting vintage cars back on the road but apparently NZTA told them they didn't have time to deal with them. I suspect the various car enthusiast groups are going to need to start banding together more in future to have a voice. Which funnily enough is how LVVTA came about in the first place. Single mark car clubs are all losing members and not attracting new ones I think, especially for older vehicles. I would think the car clubs should be working with the likes of LVVTA more as they are really the group that was there to support 'non standard' cars, modern, classic or vintage. In my working through getting my pre-war cars on the road I found references in LVVTA documents to the VCC not being very involved early on and that's definitely hurting us now. Whether LVVTA are still the organisation to represent everyone I don't know but there isn't anyone else? I know of one person who believes there is a world wide conspiracy to get 'old' cars off the road spearheaded by German company DEKRA. I've never quite understood the logic of the theory (like most conspiracy theories!) but it goes something along the lines that the big German car companies work with them to ensure only new cars can ever meet the safety standard that DEKRA are in charge of setting so that everyone needs to buy new cars because the 'old' ones are not safe enough. I don't really see that is the case myself. DEKRA seem to support classic and vintage car events and so on and I can't see why they wouldn't want to be in business inspecting older cars. I mean if all that was sold were new cars what would they have to inspect? DEKRA, by the way, owns VTNZ. Simon

Just a little update to this thread. Work progresses on my Riley. I don't think I mentioned it here but the engine does run which was a major achievement given I started with a pile of bits and totally rebuilt it (new crank, new rods, high compression pistons, etc, etc) . No cooling system yet so I can't test drive it. About to start on the timber frame and body soon. I spoke to some well known restorers about seatbelts in vintage cars and asked how they do it. The answer was they get them registered with approved belts then swap them later and no one ever notices. My Austin 7 is in limbo. But I did hear of someone who managed to register a car exactly like mine (Austin 7 factory running gear and new period correct body) following the exact same process I tried and while I got rejected theirs got through fine, no LVVTA cert needed. The Vintage Car Club does know of issues and are talking with NZTA to get them to try to sort out the mess and the fact that the process is broken and applied inconsistently. That was ongoing (they mention it again in the latest club magazine). Apparently Waka Kotahi said they were too busy to sort out the problem though. Probably even more so now Waka Kotahi are being whacked with the naughty stick again. Simon

I suspect whatever I get will end up falling behind the seat back and not be seen most of the time anyway!

Yeah, VINZ/VTNZ seem very hit and miss. There are some good ones about they seem harder and harder to find. The only way seems to be recent word of mouth. Recent because when you ask you usually get told talk to this person who says talk to that person and by the time you get some someone who has actually done it who says they used so and so at such and such place you then find out that was 10 years ago and that person is now retired or dead! That ute is nearly 30 years old (based on a 1995 date) and 30 is the minimum age for a vintage car club eligible vehicle. It might be worth talking to someone from the VCC down there: canterbury@vcc.org.nz Tell them it's a 1990 vehicle though! Simon

Well, I heard back from some of the big makers of belts. Simpson, Racequip, RJS and others. They don't certify their latch and link style belts to FMVSS209 at all so they aren't road rated. They only have racing SFI certs. I don't think anyone cares in the US. They just use them anyway. There are some smaller makers but they don't bother replying to questions on eBay or via their own websites at all. I can get old belts re-webbed locally but they need to have the right certs on them first so that doesn't help in this case. So unfortunately it seems like the more modern aircraft style latches are the only option despite being totally period incorrect.

The tricky thing is finding something that doesn't scream out of period. You put 60s style belts in a vintage car and it just makes it look like a special. No cars of the era had belts so the only thing that works period wise is something aviation styled. I've emailed Summit to see if the belts do really have that US cert and they didn't know so said ask the manufacturer. I have emailed them (RJS Racing Equipment) and am waiting to hear back. Of course having belts fitted and being able to see/use them are different things if it really comes down to it. Simon

Does anyone have experience of lap belts and what's allowed to be used? I need to fit them to my Riley. That's no problem as there are mounting points easily available. But as it is a period car I want something that doesn't look too out of period. Anything will to some degree obviously but something like race style latch and link belts look far more appropriate than modern plastic ones. It looks like as long as they meet one of a number of the standard mentioned in the manual it is fine? Can I use something like these: https://www.wescoperformance.com/3lapbelwansl.html They do say they meet FMVSS 209 which is one of the standards in the manual: SFI 16.1 Safety Spec, Made in the USA as well as Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) #209 Approved I haven't found anyone in NZ who sells them yet but people like Summit racing do and will ship to NZ no problem. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rjs-15001901#overview I think those are the same. I guess they must say on the belt what specs they meet to be allowed. Simon

Been to see the certifier. Went very well. He suggested a few things such as redoing the brake pedal to meet the standards but nothing that's hard to do. Belts in it should be fine as there is an easy mounting point available and some pointers about the fuel tank and it being in a safe position, i.e. inside the bounds of the steel chassis and not sitting in the timber/aluminium only tail! But all of those are easilably doable. So all good now to start on the framing/body. That's a big relief. Simon

Thanks, I shall look him up. I have a friend who is a cabinet maker who has also made a frame like I need and he has been most helpful. The people who do it as a business generally offer to do it for me. As well as a lost art it's always been a somewhat secret art and often people doing it for a living understandably don't want to give up their secrets! Simon

Am booked for my first meeting with my certifier to see my Riley for the first time on Thursday. We are approaching it as a Scratch-Built Historic Replica build. To be classed as that you need it verified by the VCC who give it a classification (C5 in this case) and issue a VIC card but they won't do that until the car is basically finished. Of course the certifier is wanting to see it being built. I have asked the VCC to clarify this is actually the process but they haven't replied yet. The certifier is happy to proceed but warns that I have to be sure it will be possible to get the VCC classification or else it could be a lot of time and money wasted. It should be fine as it is historically accurate and period correct but having to build the whole car before knowing if you can get it through seems a weird way to do things. It seems all or nothing, no provisional approvals or process to follow. For the LVVTA part it seems it is quite a different process for scratch built vs modified production then different again for a historic replica which is basically a scratch built copy of an existing car type but with period correct parts. Should be interesting whatever happens. I will finish building the car regardless. Anyone know anything about ash framed coachwork? My knowledge of timber is not much more than knowing you can't weld it (but I am learning)! Simon

To be fair the individual people I talked to were all very pleasant and trying to be helpful. It's just the process that seems a little tricky to navigate. It's something I wish the VCC could be more proactive in helping with. Simon

The VCC in their latest magazine have a story about someone trying to compliance a Model T via what they call 'an orange building' and giving up and in the end going to a 'seasoned, old guy' doing compliancing. The short article finishes up commenting it not what you know but who you know. Pity it doesn't say who the who is!