johnny.race

I am basically wondering what my brake upgrade options are for a YN87 Hilux. I am going to be running 15" rims and the extra weight of an iron block 8 cylinder engine. These chassis's come out with small vented disc's on the front in standard form, but fark - they look a little small. I have never mucked around with brake upgrades in the past but this car is headed towards obtaining a cert and i want it to be reasonably safe. Does anyone know if the later model (they look like they are using bigger rotors/calipers) ones fit onto the earlier models? Who's fucked around with the frontend's on these Hilux trucks? Ta. 

Thanks for the insight. I also know that certifiers have issues' with weld rod being used anywhere on an axle - inside of the the bearing retainer. I don't think shortening an axle using this method is me now that I have a reasonable understanding of whats involved. But mainly because it does not (well i don't think it will do) address the problem I sometimes come across in the shortened axle business. On a irregular regular basis I asked if i can shortened an axle by say 50mm per side. As you are aware, this requires the spline to be on where the factory neckdown normally resides. I say no - and point them in the direction of a shop i know who will put the spline there after they have applied a layer of 56S rod. They don't heat treat or anything afterwards, I know, because I know the guy that does it. I don't offer to do this because I have my own thoughts on what welding does to the integrity of the material at the pointy end of an axle. By my reckoning, utilizing the flange shrink fit method uses up a sizable portion of axle length. More than the 'up to 2 inches' max I am asked for. I can usually get around the problem by sourcing a long version of said axle ... one that has material where the new spline needs to be and go from there. General rule - the later the model, the wider the rear axle. Going this way usually means you are shopping at a commercial wreckers (in the case of a Lux but not so in the case of Coon) and thus paying their exorbitant rates. Job almost not worth doing because the customer balks at the going rate for the replacement axle on top of the labor to shorten it. I end up saying me can't do in a lot of cases, so looking at alternatives. Thanks again for the insight on this stuff. 

I have heard of Howatt shortening flange end axles quite a bit. 

 

Here is how kpr modified his Hilux axles. Thanks kpr! 

 

//oldschool.co.nz/index.php?/topic/21725-kprs-kp60/?p=597710

Has that been welded close to the axle bearing ID diameter and dressed? I looks like it has.

I mentioned before about speaking to a guy who had seen a custom built special from Howatt where (as i understand it) the axle had been chopped at the point (step) the outta seal diameter dropped down to the axle bearing ID diameter. Chopped clean through. The flange had then been bored right through the center – so you could see right through it. A shaft of 4140 (I think he said) with an unturned diameter that matched the ID of the axle bearing, had had the bored out flange shrunk onto it and welded inside the OEM spigot on the outside side of the flange. The axle had had a new spline cut into the pointy end and then some heat applied to both the spline and where the bearing sat on it. The rest of the shaft looked untouched. This is what I understood as to what was being explained to me.

I have seen flanges shrunk onto shafts before and have seen the shaft take on differing colors of heat shading – even though it was the flange and not the shaft that had been heated. I thought that this might have explained the heat marks up where the bearing sat. But he said the same effect was evident down on the spline end and back a little also. So yeah …

But I want to know about how to go about shortening an axle this way but using the OEM shaft.

I have had a look at chopping a Hilux axle just after the ID bearing diameter. The big Toyota axle tapers down a little not long after the ID bearing diameter. A hilux axle maintains a pretty uniform (as forged) diameter its entire length prior to the factory machined taper/spline. Given the depth of the case hardening in the shaft, and the fact you'd need to take a skim off the diameter of the shaft in order to square up the sides for the shrink fit ... I’d say you’d be taking fuck all off the shaft (a hilux one anyway) The part I don’t get because I have never seen on done before is – can you get away with have a bearing diameter that is only a couple of mm thick and get away with it. Because this is how thick its going to be if you bore it out enough to allow a shaft that still has a decent depth of factory case hardening left on it – to pass through.

Does that make sense? If you fark with Hilux axles – you’ll know what I am on about. Need someone who has actually done this stuff.

^^proofs in the pudding right??

roughly back on topic ... 

Nah, ya in the wrong thread! I thought it was about axles too, and fronted up with some pudding. Soon realized it was full of tradesmen who I'd probably cut more axles than most of them. So I started to pull their chains a little to get a jump outta them like vvega did all those years back. Talk us through bending a diff, dude.

Nominal mate, thanks for the info awhile back re schedule line pipe and threaded rod. I pulled out the bits and pieces I have been collecting today and had a go running a tap up up the pipe. Did one and it turned out ok. Ya can't do it under power eh unless you are friggin coordinated, lol! This was my experience anyway. 1" UNF is big stuff eh?

I have to make a jig up that will hold everything in alignment so i get consistent results with everything. 

There is a pic above of my pig and a motor. I sold it this week. (the motor not my pig) As part of the deal I take possession of a 500ci 

RB bracket engine. Will suit this car wayyy better for my intended use. Things are moving again! Churr.

FYI most hobb cutters used in NZ are HSS.....hardiness of HSS is around 60RC......with a little bit of cobalt around 70RC......both of which would make short work of cutting splines on axles with a correct cutting speeds, feeds, on a reasonable machine being used by a good machinist, most of the time success is gained by having someone who can grind tooling......any peasant can put tools in a mill or lathe, but there's a difference between an operator, a machinist and a true Tradesman......

That’s an awful lotta ducks in a row you have to have to cut a spline. HSS is pretty much well extinct in workshops who use single point cutters to cut into hardened iron for profit – much like the requirement to have someone who is a master tool bit sharpener - not reality anymore.

More axle splining shit for those of you who have ever wondered about this stuff. The pic below shows 3 Hilux axles. The all have their flange hub spigots sitting on flat concrete meaning you are seeing their true height in relation to each other.

The one on the left is a 2WD item typical of something that comes out of mid 80’s – mid 90’s 2WD pickup. Petrol or diesel it does not matter – in terms of axles they were all the same give or take a centimeter or a tad more. It has had a new spline cut into it and is waiting to have its OEM spline portion removed.

The one center is a Toyota Surf item. Note the similarity in length to the afore mentioned 2WD axle. Although not having any bearing on the points I am going to tell you about … check out the size of the 6 stud PCD flange to the 2WD flange and importantly – the size of the transition the 6 stud item uses compared the the 2WD one in terms of meat that joins the flange to the seal register.

The axle to the right is a KUN axle. KUN’s are the late model shape of sheep shaggin Hilux’s. They are wide. Check out the OEM length of a KUN compared to the other two in the pic. Wayyy longer. They are not generally found in scrap yards yet in anything but very fucked up form with no usable parts on them. These axles are $$ in the commercial wreckers (still) and … (check out the pic again) have differences down in the hub end on both sides of the flange. The KUN features a bigger seal register and uses a different bearing than the Surf/2WD do. Some of the later stuff will also have provision for ABS rings. These are fuckers to remove without risk of axle damage. On the other side of a KUN flange (the side the wheel bolts onto) you will see a difference between the earlier 2WD axles and the KUN. Something that sits hub-centrically (for a cert) on one axle will not on the other without some effort/further rework. This particular KUN axle is also waiting to have its OEM spline portion removed prior to being reworked further on the other end. 

A commonly asked for diff is something just under 1400mm from wheel bolt face (WBF) to WBF – with the pinion sitting in the center. All Hilux diffs a pinion off set from the factory. In late 70’s (I think) to the early 80’s (I know) there were a series of pickups that had a narrowish diff in them. People still talk about them today, but seriously … 30 plus years old, little to no hub spigot and factory offset of pinion not where you were wanting it? And on top of all of this Ching?! And the probability its 6 stud? I digress. Placing the pinion in the center of a diff will see you end up with one long and one short axle. The pic below shows the KUN axle with its new splines cut in at a distance that will allow this axle to be used as a driver side axle on a 1390mm WBF to WBF diff that has its pinion centered. The Toyota Surf axle is the most widely available axle of the G series diff. They are all the same length. I have taken the liberty of holding a straight edge where the KUN axle will be chopped and transferring this finished length across to the Surf axle. This is the point where the Surf axle would be chopped if it was being used as the drive axle instead of a KUN. See how much OEM spline is left? There is not enuff left to do the job. Surf axles are one of the most commonly chopped/modified axles out there – just saying.

This pic shows how far an OEM sidegear can slip down a factory axle shaft. This is possible because the factory machines in a reduced portion of axle after the rolled on splines. This is done based on sound engineering principles. They reduce the diameter down far enuff that (I guess unintentionally) the side gear can actually slide pass the end of the OEM spline.

Unscrupulous cunts can see an opening right here … but its not enuff to do the job. I’ve seen the odd one come in with the request from me am I able to rebuild the end, lol. Piss off, the axle is scrap.

This is where half of this heat treating shit stuff starts from – this little bit right here. That and due to judicious use of S56 and a blazing machine. More on this another time.

I saw this yesterday

 

but it was a hand ground bit of broken drill bit for the tool steel, and he was cutting aluminium gears from home poured billet

That's where a lot of this reheat treatment required stuff has come from I reckon. Not what you are talking about in particular but the fact that for years alot of pricks used HSS on axle shafts. Want to waste ya time and use up your gear?? Try resplining axle shafts in unsoftened form with HSS. To get anywhere using HSS the shaft had to be brought into a softened state with heat. The job was done but now the axle shaft was soft.

Tungsten Carbide on the other hand ... makes short work of the hardened skin of an induction hardened axle shaft whilst requiring no softening of the shaft beforehand.

Like vvega alluded to - I reckon the same also ... reheat treating OEM iron is over rated. 

Done a fair bit of hobb cutting splines from 19mm to gear cutting 450mm gears, to be honest the biggest problems with axle re splinting is material and it's aftercare, hobb form and size, and the machinist doing the job. Heat treating is expensive but it always helps to clue them in on yourrocess, and pay for material analysis. It's true axles are induction hardened though different manufacturers use different processes, and that includes different processing after machining dependant on year. I did a pair of Hilux axles that when I checked their hardiness came up with a difference of 5Rockwell at the surface but 7Rockwell at the core. They also consistently tested different from spline end, centre, bearing end and flange(the variation being almost 9RC, never did a material analysis because the Jew who owned them just supplied a another pair of axles instead. It's hard to determine what has been a factory hardness or work hardening caused by wear and tear.

Generally found cutting fresh splines is better than extending old, and if they need to be welded then do it at the flange with heat treating as stress relief.

Cheers for the insight, but question ... what did you do to the axle shaft that necessitated you you to require re heat treating. Or did I read it wrong.

So i saw a machinist extend cut splines with a tool tip ground to the profile of the splines, took time.

I'm not completely useless, i can always set a bad example.  For instance, the time i cut splines on a drive shaft for AG equipment using a cutoff wheel in a grinder with slots in wood as a guide...

I can only speak of automotive axle splines, but yeah, i have done this before. All you are really doing is gouging out some little troughs for the top of the mating spline to fit into. They can look funny on an axle though, eh? The radius of most cutters used by dudes cutting axle splines is wayyy sharper than the trough of a rolled on involute. The splines end up looking half arsed to me. Plus the entire fit got more sloppy, lol. I know why too. You have to be at cutting depth prior reaching the new material or its not going to work. So you end up taking some out of the existing spline when you don't really want to. Rolled on splines have a different form at the end too eh? You can jam a side gear onto cut splines but its pretty hard to do on the factory roll job. 

Here's some good oil for anyone getting their axles shortened by resplining. They all look the same when you go to pick them up - they are sharp, flash and shiney and you are impressed. Its always the same. You hand over your dosh and the deal is done. No checking, no nothing. I mean how? How do you check the shops work? No need because your mate reckoned they were good? The guy looked trustworthy?? You didn't hump your diff into the shop with you?? Jesus! you are a trusting soul.

Here is how its done (and feel free to jump in sentra, i know you know this shit) It starts right at the very beginning. You need to get ahold of a side gear. Have a play with this on your axle and get a feel for the fit. When you take your axles into the machine shop you want to leave them under no doubt that you know what you are after and the fit you want. It needs to be no looser than the factory fit - in fact you want it tighter because they are cutting new iron. Fuck they will be charging you a new price. The point here is you need to let them know that you know how to check their work. Ask to see their side gear. No ... fucking ask to see it. If they produce one - then sweet. But check to make sure it fits your axle. If they can't or don't - then ask them how they are going to size their work to your diff. Don't believe them if they say they have tables and stuff. They may have but that stuff all relates to involute form i think. Not the 'cut 90 included' they are going to give you. Basically and once your back is turned (lol) they are going to give it to the apprentice (haha) because this task involves a balls aching 20 - 40mins of watching a spline cutter cut up, then counting 3 revolutions and some intricate number of holes on an indexer head ... ummmm 30 odd times ) 

They will only want to do this once. Because every time its done, its going to take another 30 odd mins. On top of this is machining the major diameter and then the mill setup. Its at this point that I have to say .... as a cunt that cuts spline for a living most weeks - if you only want to go over the axle once and you are not too concerned about the fit ... then you will be taking a decent cut right off the bat. Sometimes its spot on and you are going to have a good day. Most times its not. Its undersized and you have just machined in some added backlash into the customers diff. But he's going to pay you for the privilege. Still looks good though. To get the good fit bro's ... most times takes several passes (2 or 3) This ends up taking hours outta your day. You sneak up on the fit and you end up with a beautiful slide fit with no where near the slop the 'one pass' method has.

So then, upon uplift .... you front up with your sidegear and try it on your axles. Its a 'trust but verify' situation for you. If they have 'built in' more slop than the worn factory example you tried the side gear on ... what are you going to do. 

Dinner time for me, More on this another time.

The other axle from that Bedford prior to dressing, My shed stinks of Hypoid.

That poster above .... the one that said he had something to do with Heat Treaments - he'd know some interesting stuff that is not general knowledge in the car enthusiast realm but is common dog fuck to people into that line of work or custom axle making. Terms bandied around like 'oh - just heat treat it' and other terms dudes flippantly say but not realizing that that stuff does not work on a lot of things and they are in fact, making a cash donation for someone to guess at what material their axle is really made from. 

What does involute mean?

Involute in shedrat speak, is a gear form that you will not get from a normal machine shop on your resplined axle (no matter what they say) Instead of straight sides, an involute spline has curved ones. Specially designed curved ones i might add. there is volumes written on gear design and form. I think in some circles the form of spline that is normally cut here (90 and 60 for automotive axle use) are called 'serrations' or something. Involutes are supposed to be way stronger and feature less friction than straight cut ones. Again ... if your last name is not Warner and your middle name is not Borgy - then you are going to be pushing to get rolled involutes on your shortened axle from most (say all) places.

Wow

Yeah, not enough dragons eh bro! Ahh well, nevermind, here's a pic of an involute spline (he lied) I cut today. Its a 9" pattern on an old Bedford axle. Truth being, the only thing involute is the sidegear this 90 included is slid through.

Peace.

A guy at work was telling me about them. Reportedly a bw type78 axle as found on AU coons has the same 28 spline as a 9"er.

An AU coon diff with 3.45:1 has been acquired to shorten up for duty in a certain green valiant hardtop.

As many makers roll their splines, the diameter Is too small to enable cutting on a new one.

And I have serious doubts about the longevity of welded axles with ~500 ponies a loose high stall, and DOT stickies at the back.

Yeah they are. I have sold a few pairs of modified AU axles - not stock length ones but shortened ones to put the pinion of a 9" where the customer wants it. An AU is the widest live axle to come out in a Falcon. The axle spline DP is the same as a 9" but very few (like nearly none) want a 9" as wide as a factory AU. They could just use a standard 9". Would be cheaper at that width. Did your mate tell you also that 28 spline Mitz also fit in a 9" head? Axles are an incestuous lot dude. But then there are the black sheep. 30 hilux splines are not going to fit into 30 Ford courier splines. Same count but different DP used. 

Never heard of any that roll splines here aye. Half the people that cut splines do not even cut in the correct profile.

I believe mark Williams (or similar) has a sweet write up about it on their website.

I'm interested to know how tight the male and female splines should fit together as have seen some cut within nz that were extremely loose.

Edit.

Also when buying for a 9" or similar you have bulk length choices- but what about the DIY cut to length axles with super long splined section..is having extra spline a weakness?

What do you mean half? So you know someone who puts an involute spline on an axle for 2 hundy do ya? Pfffttt! Next to no one cuts involutes mate let alone rolls them on in this country. The stuff you are talking about is usually rolled or hobbed on. And who does that in NZ to automotive axle shafts? Yeah right, lol. The best you are going to get from around here is a 90 degree included. And that's a cut 90 included, not a squished on one that is rolled on and is strong as fuck. But does it make a difference? Like really mate - does it? At street HP levels on street rubber. I am not a machinist by trade, have never had any formal training but can tell you all about spline cutting axle shafts. Done a heap of them. Doing one at the moment. Have a heap more to do. You can read as good as the next guy ... spline cutting disrupts the grain flow in the iron ... produces stress risers blah blah. But i wonder why I always have work? Maybe its because the minor negatives a cut 90 brings as baggage pales into insignificance when thinking about the extreme mechanical property change the iron goes through when subjected to the intense heat (read contraction/expansion/crystallization stuff) an arc puts it through?? 

The weak point in those CTF axles are at the spline. As is on a Hilux when its resplined. I have heard that a Hilux one i have done (or several of them for the same customer - this is for a specialist stockcar builder) have twisted before - but not broken. These guys are 'over' doing the weld thing.

Last thing ... the yanks go on in their speel about the ideal this and ideal that .... but their products say something differently. Check out johnnysbigblockpoweredstickcar thatdontshine thread in Projects .... Check out those axles. 35 Spline .... bigger than a donkeys dick and smoother than your mums broomstick ... with cut 90's on the end like i do in the shed, lol.

Rolled involute my butt.

Farrrrkkk!

Today is the 7th of Jun 2016. I have received a call from my mates down at Techweld on Tremain Ave saying my bottle was back, filled and ready for uplift ... after I gave them $603 incl. So then .... executive summary; Size G owner bottle took 35 days and cost $603 to fill and be returned. Note, this cost included a new regulator. 

So now all you pricks know the other side of 'oh, fuck renting - I own my own bottle;

Lol!!!! 

I am busy finishing off some Bedford full floater to 9" axles for someone. Inbetween stuff, I might have a go at doing this shrinky the flange thingy onto a suitably prepared axle shaft. I can see what Wayne means when mentioning the mechanical strength of a shrink fit as being phenomenal. I went into my stash of scrap and absolute fuckups and had a look at a couple of axle shafts. (I am not going to experiment with any of my Hilux or 9" stuff due to the ching ching factor they cost me) and have found a couple of potential victims.

I have also caught up with a guy who I know has had dealings with a vehicle that had its toosh prepared by Howat Engineering down in Wellington. He explained in shedrat speak (because that's my native tongue) how the custom length ones done by them appeared to be constructed. They used some 4140 (or similar) for the shaft and appeared to have had some heat applied to the bearing journal position and the spline. Hmmm. I bet i know whats going on in there and - friggin clever! But what I was seeing in my head as he was explaining stuff is different than what i see in my head reading the stuff said by vvega.

Farrrrk - time to try it out myself me thinks. 

Oh, didn't know that. But that aside ... to me, he came across as knowing more than most cunts about this particular topic. Just wondering if anyone knows who he is as i want some in depth advice from someone who's been there first hand - and not got it from hearsay or a book

I am working with axles if not every second day, then every third day. And I am into meeting cunts that do the same sorta stuff that i do. That's all. Anyone know him? Someone said the name Wayne up above. Is that him? Cheers.

My interest in modified axle erotica' runs longgg and deep. 8 years ago this little thread was being discussed about axle shortening. Although I am a fucking know it all when it comes to shortening a couple of popular make axles by way of resplining, I have always wanted to know more about another mainstream method of shortening axles - that being cutting then refitting the axle flange back onto a suitably modified axle shaft.

Who is/was Guest_vvega_* above? Anyone know? When i run the mouse thing over a users name, stuff comes up. But it does not for his name. Has he been banned or something? Anyone know him?

Yeah, I know man ... but you will not be buying a G size one for that amount. My one is the G sized one - twice or more the cubes those ones you are are talking about.

And under the 'lol!!!' file .... last Thursday - the 2nd day of June, I was thinking, farrrk - where are these cretins and my bottle?? It had been 1 x calendar month exactly on the 2nd according to the Techweld receipt I had in my wallet. And what do you know?! Nah, and its not my bottles ready, but i got a call out of the blue from Supergas - Hamilton. The nice lady on the other end (and she was good about it) asked if i had a bottle with them. I said yup and bit my tongue about anything else. She said sorry about the delay in getting back to you buttttt .... your bottle regulator is of the type that cannot be refilled by us - now. This due to some Health and Safety regulation that had come into force recently. I'm sitting there thinking - Fuck, that bottle is quite new and as was the regulator. I got it from off a dealer on TM only a couple of years ago. Feeling my rectum being pried about by a gas company as a hapless bottle owner, I asked how much. She said $160 something dollars. I swear my lip was just about bleeding. I asked her if the turn around of 1 month was normal for Supergas to refill bottles and she replied no, that she was sorry but this is what happens when the dudes on the floor (or words to this effect) did not tell her a bottle had been sitting there for weeks and they had just worked around it. Gawd - grrr! Fuckers!! But, I say again - she was pretty good about it and as a result so was I. So ... this refill is going to be in the $600 plus vicinity for me I reckon, FUCK!!! No more fucking freebie welds for anyone. Yeah and in case you were wondering - Nup, I still have not got my bottle back.

Lol!

Fuck me. I might be getting me a little spare fucker from off TM like some one reckoned to do in a previous post. 

Just rang Techweld to ask about the status of my bottle ... hoping against hope that I was beating them off the mark by ringing them before they rang me to say - come and get it. Yeah right. I distinctly remember being told by the person taking my bottle that it would be around 2 weeks, maybe a little more but no more than 3 weeks. I dropped it off on 2 May. Next Monday is going to be the 3 week point. When I rang this time - a totally different story was spun to me. Can be away up to a month - it depends on Supagas blah blah blah. Fuck these cunts. There has got to be a better way.