VintageSpecial

It was me who went down the CA03 route. That is the official way to do it. But I would advise finding someone who knows the system and has done it before to help you. Maybe you can find a good VTNZ place that can do it. When I tried it myself it was a disaster. Micky Mouse AF describes it perfectly. You need something from the Police to say it's not stolen. Or rather they have no interest in it. You used to be able to go to a Police Station and ask them and they'd print something out to say that. They won't do that now. The only way I found to get around that was do an OIA request to ask them. Even the people at the Police stations I talked to thought that was ridiculous. You also need proof of ownership, so a sales receipt is good. And you need a statutory declaration you do own the car. Any JP can give you that. And you need the chassis number verified by an agent, i.e. VTNZ (there are others too but don't have the list handy). They will simply look at it and give you a letter saying they verified physically the chassis number. It can also help (apparently it can help but no one can tell me how) to have what's called a DOMAS from the Vintage Car club which is them stating the car is really a 19XX whatever. They will come inspect it. Often the person inspecting it will know less about it than the person who built it! Only you can't get that until the car is complete so I am not sure how much help it is in any case. In the end, and this is after months and months of back and forth they came back to me and said mine was a Scratch Built Historic Vehicle (it's an Austin 7 with a new body) so I need to go that route. As I have another vehicle, of far higher value, also needing to go LVVTA Scratch built I am not sure it's going to be worth doing the Austin 7 but will see what the certifier says (hopefully talking to him this week). The VCC says the average cost for fully certing a vintage scratch built is between $5-6k. NZTA actually waived the $184 fee since it had all taken so long and was such a cock up. Simon

I was looking at this a little lately as I am building my replica Riley. I had to make up the clutch pedal linkages myself as saloon car ones won't fit and original ones aren't available. Even most 'original' cars are modified as original gearboxes broke and were replaced with standard production car ones as factory race ones aren't exactly abundant and haven't been made since the 1930s. The differences are minor as in slightly different castings and shafts so easy to work around. I looked up the rules around clutch pedals and linkages in the manual and couldn't see anything. Brake pedals though are definitely mentioned. I think brakes are considered safety critical but I guess clutches aren't! In chats to a certifier he told me original pedals cannot be modified in any way (so no cutting, drilling, heating, bending, welding, etc, etc) but that if you made your own from mild steel that is OK as long as they meet the requirements in the manual. It gets a little fuzzy around the differences around modified production, scratch built and scratch built historic replica though. "I highly doubt anyone who was not a leading expert on reliant scimitars would ever know. " That must be an issue for all certifiers with some of the less common things they have to look at. Especially when the certifier is dealing with an 'expert' who built the car who I am sure thinks they know better! I don't consider myself an expert on mine despite knowing the cars pretty well now through trying to replicate one. I just stick to keeping it as close to factory as possible with as many examples in photos, period manuals, parts books and so on to show they are. Am getting close to having the certifier have a first look now. Am just about ready to do a first engine start on a complete rolling chassis. Just sorting out how you do ignition timing on a magneto ignition engine with no timing marks! Simon

Am still talking to people about LVV certifiers who might be able to help with a scratch built historic replica. Is there any way to find out who might have done those before and understands the process? I am making enquiries through the various clubs I am in too. I did find this section 7 in the LVVTA operating requirements manual here: https://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/operating_requirements_schedule/LVVTA_Operating_Requirements_Schedule.pdf NOTE 1: As examples, a typical ‘Scratch-built Historic Replica’ LVV as described in 7.1(2) might be a constructed 1925 Bentley 3-litre replica, a constructed alloy-bodied AC Cobra replica, or a constructed Type-35 Bugatti replica. It may also be a Austin Seven sedan re-bodied with a period-correct open sports body. So their might be hope for the 7 after all. I suspect they are a bit more typical than Type 35 Bugattis! Simon

Point 3, good to know. I am talking to the VCC too of course being a member of it. Point 4 is interesting. The funny thing is I guess then your 1930s car that needed WOF every 6 months then only needs a WOF ever 1 year as it is registered after 2000? Or does it get treated as a brand new car so the first 3 years are WOF free? Point 5. The Austin 7 is made up but in period style. Very much like an Ulster (the factor never called them that officially, they are EA sports) but more curvy. The body isn't a direct copy of anything. It does get mis identified as an Ulster from time to time! The Riley is very much more a copy of the originals using as much original reference material as possible. The body plans are from ones drawn up as a body to go on an original when it was in the country (but was never built as far as I know) and that body is based on original bodies. The car will be timber framed with aluminium skin exactly as they made them in period. I am drawing up the frame plans from original photos and reference material and have one original door skin I can copy. You can get a lot of idea of shape from a door skin! I am currently making CAD models to try to get it as correct as possible. I am literally right now 3D printing a 1:12 model of the chassis. Most of my reference material comes from an original car that used to be in NZ (now back in the UK) that had a long history here in NZ of being raced, crashed, rebuilt and so on. That's a good example of a car that no longer has it's original factory engine. That ended up in another car somewhere back in it's history. Plus I have a huge library of reference material from all sorts of other sources. Photographs of originals and replicas. Hence knowing no two originals are the same! I am in the relevant clubs (here and UK) and and documenting all the parts I buy and who from. And the costs - very scary. Making the frame and body though is a lot of work hence wanting to know there is a way to get it driveable at the end. I spent 10 years learning on the Austin, how to do the aluminium skin, shaping it, gas welding it, finishing it all in a period correct way and so on. If I can't get the Austin on the road that's OK, it was my learning car. But if I can't then use these skills to get the Riley on the road there isn't much point continuing. I could get it to rolling chassis stage and sell it off overseas and let someone else go through the headache of making it legal where they are. Then take up knitting. Simon

Oops, got two replies combined there. As I was saying Chris very much appreciated and nice and clear. For point 3 do you think an organisation like the VCC can help here? Does it help if we have other examples for instance? We already have the VCC DOMAS form which is where the VCC inspect the car and say what it is and what class of car but I don't know if that form helps with the LVVTA process at all? Point 4 helps clear that up, thank you. Does the vehicle then get a new identity if considered scratch built. So say it was a 1930 Bentley saloon and a new Le Mans style racing style body was coach built for it in 2021 so the car falls under scratch built would it then be a 1930 or a 2021 registered car? Does it get a new VIN? I don't think that happens much here to be honest. But it definitely does in the UK. Point 5. Yes, am documenting everything. You need lots of reference material when trying to replicate something of course when you don't have an original right there to copy. Thanks again for such concise answers. Simon

Thanks Chris, that's all very helpful and much appreciated. Yes thanks, I had that one and NZTA sent me a copy too with the CA03 result which was good. The other one important for my particular situation is #01-2008: https://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_01-2008_Introduction_of_Sub-categories_for_Scratch-built_LVV.pdf That one mentions the exemptions for ‘authentic replica’ scratch-built vehicles which the Riley should come under. I don't think many cars go through that process. I know of one going through at the moment but not any others so far. Simon

Regarding the scratch built/modified production thing what happen if I bought a running, registered Austin 7 now, swap the mechanicals over to be my nicely restored ones, rebuilt engine, close ratio gearbox and so on. As far as I am aware that's perfectly legal to do and doesn't need LVV cert. At least then I would have a nice, period correct, restored car to drive. What if you then later take the body off and put on a special body? Obviously that would need LVV certification for the body mod but what would the car be considered then? Not saying I am going to do that or course, all hypothetical! It's not really economically viable. I like Austin 7s but they aren't worth throwing piles and piles of money at! Simon

It's not the fines though, it's the demerit points that could become a problem! Plus I am a good boy

Hi Chris, yes I figured you were on here too! Was most helpful talking to you and it did clear up some things. Regarding the lack of identity yes, the issue is that it is missing from Landata. That is a little annoying since they (being whoever the departments were at the time) lost a load of data when the system was first computerised. I think it was the Post Office initially. They only entered in current registrations. Anything historical was lost I believe. When NZTA now look up data are the using the same data set that available to the public (via here: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/open-data-portal/) or do they have extra information they look up? This is important to know for anyone starting to build a car as lack of history does make it much harder. Can you explain a little more around building a scratch built car about what parts you can/can't use? If you can't use different parts from different sources how can you scratch build it unless you start with a single vehicle then pull it apart? In Austin 7 world at least building a 'special' from period correct parts from different cars is extremely common. It's common for other makes of vintage car too. It's also very common for original cars from that period to not have the parts it started life with. Reconditioned engines, different axles, gearboxes and so on. Over 90 odd years things get swapped around. If the parts are correct of the make and to period I don't see what the problem would be. I imagine most of the Austin 7s on the road now in NZ don't have their original parts still. As for multiples of the same car I can see how that could be a problem but that usually seems to be with high value cars and people trying to pass them off as something they aren't (e.g. Bugattis and Bentleys). Is that really much of an issue in NZ? If the car is registered as a historic special, with a modern date on it that shouldn't really be possible. If the parts all have to come from one vehicle, with a known history won't that just encourage people to take perfectly good, registered cars and break them up to turn into specials. An issue they have in the UK to some degree. Can you explain a bit more what the process is then for cars made from parts? It would help to understand the process is before even starting on a project like this. As for the "authentic replica (not readily distinguishable from the original)" I know you were trying to explain that to me on the phone yesterday. Does that mean it has to be an exact replica of an actual existing car? How does it work for cars where no two originals were the same? My Riley is a good example. The Brooklands were factory built on order, probably made with whatever parts they had on hand at the time, and with bodies made by different companies. I doubt any two were the same when they were built let alone 90 years later after most have had long histories, often raced, where they were changed year to year or even race to race. In the case of an Austin 7 special it is harder as the very nature of a special means it's not like any other car exactly. Specials can vary a lot of course, from a standard chassis with a new body literally bolted on to highly modified but still totally period correct. So that determination can vary widely. If you start with a registered Austin 7 on the road now, rip off the body and put on a new one is that modified production or scratch built? So how do you (LVVTA/NTZA) determine how accurate something is? Obviously it will vary case to case but what sorts of proof or evidence do we need to provide? And how can you know before starting a project what sorts of things might trip you up until you have actually built it. Obviously we can talk to the certifiers and LVVTA but for something like a vintage car (or some other less common sort of thing) until something is built what is you you use to determine if it will ever be able to be registered if the certifiers have no experience of it? My Austin 7 might be a lost cause. If I have to follow the rules in the Constructors Manual it's no longer a period Austin 7. And on such a tiny car you struggle to meet the rules anyway I think. You can add hydraulic brakes for example, was a common mod in the 50/60/70s on Austin 7s but then it's no longer a period correct vintage car. I have no problem with the manual by the way, that's very clear and useful. It's more around knowing what is The Riley as a replica should be easier but how can I determine now that I will be able to finish it and get it legal. Obviously talk to the certifier, but what is it they will want to see/know and what sorts of things will the LVVTA be wanting to know. Hopefully they can tell me. I guess I mean can I justify it is a historic replica now as you mention above before I actually finish building it so I know nothing will trip me up later? Then I can determine if it is even worth continuing. Thank you for trying to help me, and others, understand. As I mentioned it's not just me in this situation. We know of at least 20 vintage type cars being built at the moment with varying degrees of success navigating the process. I don't want to go into too many details for fear of upsetting others builds! Simon

It has to be a category 1D certifier so not sure TMS can help but will ring them, thanks! Most people I have talked to have been helpful but no one can give you the whole process and some actually tell you the wrong thing. It was an entry certifier who sent me the CA03 in the first place to fill out and that was wrong it seems. Then NZTA don't make it clear what information they want and tell you to go talk to the Police to get a report it's not stolen. That was wrong. The Vintage Car club initially sent me the wrong papers saying I DIDN'T need LVV cert and that was wrong. You hear of cars just like mine (other Austin 7 specials) getting through when they'd been handled by certain inspectors/certifiers then you hear of others being told by certifiers there is no way to do under the current rules. So someone is wrong there. It just gets very frustrating when you've spent 10 years building something and have tried to do it right the whole way through and get tripped up at the end by the process. Am not trying to do anything unsafe, nothing illegal. It's a bog standard 750CC less than 20HP vintage car, built correct to period and verified by the VCC as such so it shouldn't be that difficult you would think. My advice for anyone doing an Austin 7 special at least is don't bother. There just isn't enough value in them to make it worthwhile. A bit sad really as there is a long history of Austin 7 specials in the history of motoring. Bruce McLaren started in one. So did Peter Brock. And Colin Chapman. The vintage car club bang on about losing members all the time and if people can't build vintage cars anymore that's only going to get worse. Although now all 80s cars are eligible as VCC vehicles so maybe they are hoping to bolster numbers by attracting aging boy racers in their R32 Skylines! There are a few old chaps who built vintage specials during lockdowns who are finding they can't get theirs on the road now sadly. We're trying to get an idea of how many people are affected now. Will talk to the certifiers today, see what they say and weight up if it's worth continuing. With NZTA saying it's a Scratch-Built Historical Replica and the VCC classifying it as a B5 (necessary to be a scratch built historic) so hopefully that means it falls under the exclusions listed in #01-2008. The bit that worries me is the 'as we deem appropriate" wording. As always will update when I get to the next step here.

I spoke to someone called Chris. He was helpful and confirmed some things. The main issue is not knowing that they'd class the car as a scratch built from the start because in the past, and not that distant, others have got cars though differently. There are now quite a few people in the VCC having difficulty. I had a hunt about and found this page that shows the LVV process: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/warrants-and-certificates/modifying-your-vehicle/lvv-certification-process/#build For a scratch built car it seems the LVV certification and Entry certification steps happen at the same time to be able to get a VIN? The first entry certifier who I spoke to is the one who sent me the CA03 form to fill out in the first place! The two closest LVV certifiers are Andy Smith in Levin and Ken McAdam in Wellington it seems. Will try ringing them tomorrow.

Well, they declined my CA03 application. I got this today: I was expecting to have to go though a LVV certifier at some point but apparently I need to go to them first now? I spoke to them and they said they can't do anything until it's in the system (which is what the exemption is for!) so how do you do that? You still have to work with an entry certifier. Apparently you can do both at the same time? Does the LVV certifier talk to an entry certifier for me? So I don't know? Will having NZTA saying it is a Scratch Built Historic Replica help as that is the sub category where certain exemptions are allowed such as not needing dual circuit hydraulic brakes and so on. The LVV chap I spoke to (who was nice and helpful) seemed to think it's not a historic replica as it's a scratch build body, not a copy of something original. The body is built to period though. It was common in the day for companies to provide bare chassis then the bodies coach built by someone else. Everything else on mine is standard Austin 7. I suppose I could just says it's an Austin 7 Ulster but I am so crap at aluminium body work so instead of square corners they came out round! With the Austin it's honestly getting to the point where it might not be worth it. They aren't high value cars. Is it worth now spending another 3k at least (and goodness knows how long) trying to get it on the road? Probably not. If they don't allow exemptions as it's not a replica of a production car adding all the things to meet the LVVTA standards in the manual is going to be nearly impossible. At least without totally changing the car so then it's no longer a vintage Austin 7. So what to do? Buy a bog standard one already registered and put my nicely rebuilt motor/gearbox/rear axle in it and throw away the body? Break it up and sell off the bits? Starting to feel it was 10 years of wasted time building it although I guess it was good practice for the Riley. The Riley at least has value. If I can't register that here it can be sold overseas and I won't lose money. So talk to a LVV certifier next I guess. Not many around me (Kapiti) so hopefully one of them wants to do vintage cars? Am honestly rethinking my choice of hobby...

Every month I get an email from NZTA an I get excited thinking my CA03 has finally come through but no, it's just an update on the Peka Peka to Otaki Road progress. I am looking forward to that opening as then the current roads around where I am will get quieter and be far nice for driving my vintage cars on. If I am allowed to of course.

I don't think that's pushy when their own email response says 10 working days and the web site somewhere says 20 I think. I understand the waiting until after your particular request is handled before complaining. Now I know about OIA requests thanks to them and the Police report when mine comes through I might do one to see how many applications they have actually had to process the last few months. That information should be publicaly available. They are putting more and more data online now too. You can see all the re-registrations here: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/how-the-motor-vehicle-register-affects-you/motor-vehicle-registrations-dashboard-and-open-data/ According to that there were 17 re-registered cars in November. In October there were only 8. And in September 12. Don't know how many would be CA03 process ones though. A lot probably have old papers/lapsed existing rego. You can filter on motorcycles too. 24 in November. I am trying to find the actual API for this stuff which should be about somewhere I think thanks to all the open government data stuff. If you're a computer geek type like me they are quite fun to play with.

Just an update on mine. Been 30 working days now from the third time I sent in the CA03 application (over 3 months since I started the process!) and am still waiting to hear. I rang again yesterday (long wait times - crappy music on hold) and after 45 minutes all they could say was it was still being reviewed and someone looked at it 2 weeks ago (last time I rang incidentally). Other than that no extra info. All they could say was they have had a lot of applications recently. Does anyone know what they actually do? We provide all the papers they need so what is their actual process? Police confirm it's not stolen, the testing place witnesses the chassis number and gives you a letter saying so, the Vintage Car Club verifies it's period correct and I signed a legal document saying I own it. I don't understand what the 'process' actually involves and can't find it on the web site at all. If we knew the process it would help when we have to apply to be able to send in the right things first time. I think even if it comes through now I won't be able to get it looked at by the testing place until sometime early next year now I imagine. In early October when we went to see them to witness the chassis number they said they were already booked till Christmas. Plus I'll have to sort out a LVV inspector too I guess but no point doing that till I know I am even allowed to. Don't know what to do it I can't VIN it? As someone else said in another thread might be time for a different hobby than old cars! Goat, any word on yours yet?

Yes, be interesting to know. Especially things a WOF place thinks LVVTA got wrong? That doesn't sound right at all.

I'd say the whole process is a bit Mickey Mouse but it's rather more Harry Potter - you need to know the right magic words to say to the right people!

How did you word the OIA? For mine I just asked for any information relating to the chassis number. So basically I got back something saying they had no information at all about that chassis number. So an OIA request to find out they know nothing. I don't see why NZTA can't do that themselves?

Goat, I feel your pain! The Police have an online form for OAI requests. This is what I used and it worked: https://forms.police.govt.nz/oiarequest With my Austin 7 I also got back the "10 business days" reply when I resubmitted my documents (for the third time) but I have always been told it now takes about 20 working days. After not hearing anything back from them in 20 days I rang them again, spent ages waiting to talk to someone who then had to transfer me to a more senior person, more waiting, then she just said they had the application, it was "being reviewed" and it would take 20 working days. So I just wait I guess? The VINing place is now probably booked out till March I imagine. And even then I think it will need a LVVTA inspection too. I first contacted NZTA in August so at this rate it might end up taking almost half a year to get the paper work done and the car registered (if they let me). A friend up north with a similar car talked to a vehicle repairer who just rang Wellington apparently and said this car needs a VIN and was just issued one! So his car now has a plate affixed and he's able to go through the rest of the process. No CA03 involved at all. I started writing up the process I had to go through to help others in the VCC with it. It is very confusing and yes everyone gets told different things. I haven't finished doing this yet as obviously I haven't completed the process but here is part of it: I sent them all that on the 21st Oct and am waiting to hear back now. My advice for anyone trying to do this is find a testing place or inspector who has already done this for someone. If they can organise it all for you and you provide them the docs needed I think it goes much smoother. Finding someone who knows is the tricky part! Simon

Oddly enough a friend up in the far north is going through the same process but he's been given a VIN plate BEFORE actually completing the CA03 process. He had the car inspected by a repairer. Apparently they can also do the initial part. The inspector contacted NZTA directly it seems and said they needed a VIN so they issued one. My friend had to physically take the car to a VTNZ place and they attached it. He is now sending in his documentation. When he did the Police OIA request he specified his local district in the form and he got back a simple emailed response very quickly (a day or so). I didn't specify in mine so it took somewhat longer (2 weeks) but mine came in the form of an official looking PDF. So it seems the process is somewhat, errr, fluid depending on where you are and who you are dealing with. We haven't even got to the actual inspection/LVVTA parts yet! Simon

Just a quick follow up on my saga. I took the car to VTNZ who looked at the chassis number and verified it on a form with their letterhead. And my OIA request to the Police came back saying they had no record of it in their system. I also did a new statutory declaration explaining how I bought the car and when and had that witnessed and signed. That was sent back to exemptions@nzta.govt.nz for them to look at again. Hopefully this now matches what they want. Simon

Yes, a lot to try and keep up with all the time I imagine. I wouldn't expect anyone to know it all off the top of their heads. It would be useful if the VCC made this particular one a bit more clear in their documentation as it was specifically put in place for them. There is an amusing little dig at them in that info sheet around their lack of voice when it comes to such things. It's a pretty massive concession made by NZTA/LVVTA for us though. The most up to date VCC restoration manual I can find is from 2001 so it's out of date a bit and of course won't have this info in it. But the forms you have to fill in to get the VCC category verified should really mention it. It had puzzled me what those VCC classifications were for outside of the VCC and this info sheet explains that. I am not sure when they came in so they might have already been there then those were adopted as part of the sub classes. I searched the club magazines for 2008 and they don't mention it. I know of people starting to go through that process now armed with that sheet so will be interesting to see how they get on. One slightly tricky thing is the VCC want to see the car finished to classify it but the certifier wants to see it being built/apart so they can verify everything. No dodgy paint/filler hiding things! Luckily your average pre war car doesn't really have much to it so you can see most of it easily. My approach is to finish the car, make it functional but not make it pretty until it's all OKed. You wouldn't want to spend thousands on paint or leather upholstery until you know it's going to get through I guess. Simon

Another piece of information for the pile. This is of immense importance to people like be building historically accurate replicas of pre 1960 cars. So my Riley Brooklands, Bugatti Replicas and the like. It basically makes it easier for us to get through low volume certification. If you build a pre war car and try to follow the rules for a scratch built as set out in the LVVTA Car Constructors manual you will find you can't. You have to do so many things what you end up with is basically a Hot Rod, not a pre war replica. It seems this issue was recognised back in 1998 and then in 2008(!) LVVTA released Information sheet 01-2008: https://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_01-2008_Introduction_of_Sub-categories_for_Scratch-built_LVV.pdf This basically introduces new sub categories with different rules for pre 1960 historic replicas. The cars need to be sighted (basically finished) by the VCC who verify the category it is in on what is called a DOMAS document. This information sheet says they can vary the rules for certain types of historic scratch built vehicles apart from a few, non exempt safety rules. So it removes a lot of the barriers from a period correct cars. You can use period lights with out standards (providing they work well enough!), brakes can be as original (my Riley has a single cable operating all the brakes) and the steering requirement is met by the fact that the steering box is well behind the front axle and there is a longitudinal drag ling to the stub axle. This info sheet isn't mentioned in the constructors manual (this is noted in the sheet itself) and is just one in a list of 107 of them on the LVVTA web site. So no one knows about it it seems. An older chaps (in his 70s or 80s) found it after going through all the documents on the site there. He confirmed with LVVTA that it is still valid. The VCC has never mentioned it as far as I can tell and certainly don't mention it at all on their DOMAS forms. I am not sure which certifiers will know about it as I imagine it doesn't happen very often. I just wonder what other things are buried in the various information sheets that have come out over the years. This one is only useful to those building VCC historic replicas but there might be other useful things in the information sheets for people with other issues. Simon

Another step done. Took the car to a VTNZ to get them to cite the chassis number. He gave me a form on their letterhead saying the Make, Model, Year, VIN/Chassis Number and who sighted it. I can now send that off to NZTA along with the other documents when I get them. It only took 5-10 minutes for him to do but as they were busy we had to wait over an hour (staff member down) so probably best to book first. When I do get permission to re-VIN it that's where I will take it back to so it was good for them to at least have seen the car now. Simon Quick edit to add they didn't charge me anything for this bit.

Another quick follow up. I asked at Wellington Central station and no, the Police no longer give out vehicle of interest reports. The only thing they could suggest was either using the website they have or else the OIA request, as I have done. Simon