fishtailfred

Also, post a screen shot of your timing map so some people in here can give you some hints about what to fix. And VE/fuel map while you're at it.

And another thought, did you verify that the timing on the laptop matches the timing on the engine? If you had shit apart, maybe something changed? I had a pulley damper slip while setting the cam timing on my engine once, I cut that fucker in half with an angle grinder to ensure it never happened again.

Yeah, cruise as in driving long distance and not getting pulled over.

This is a thread about tuning, right? Talk kPa

I guess I wasn't clear. I've driven cars that took full throttle to do 110 (which is a safe place to be at pulling over wise), they were "cruising" at 100kPa. I've driven others that were cruising at 140 (OK with radar detector ) with a slight touch of the throttle, they were "cruising" at probably 40kPa. The latter would be happy with 50* advance and 16:1 AFR, the former would need 13:1 AFR and ~30* timing. Hence the question.

Ratios make a difference too.

Also, what you should be doing is this:

1. 
   [*:ffer4j8s]Save settings with some information about what they contain, date, comments, state of mods, fuel, etc.
   [*:ffer4j8s]Take datalogs with laptop or other device each and every time that you drive it, save with reference to tune ID.
   [*:ffer4j8s]When you get a chance, review all datalogs since last tuning session and make some positive changes
   [*:ffer4j8s]Repeat 1 - 3!

Normal driving patterns, with a bit of thrash here and there, will give you a LOT of good info about what to change in the tune.

Fred.

might not have enough timing in it off boost. will cause it to heat up. too lean wont make it hot. around stoich (14.7 afr) is the hottest burn. leaner or richer and temps drop off. up in the 15's is sweet for cruise afr. generally runs bit cooler and uses less fuel. not as good for the trees tho

BIG +1, sounds like it's retarded to shit. I know people that cruise in the 17 - 19 range with as much as 55 btdc advance. you're looking at some serious egts with that, though, despite the above being true.

It's important to note that "cruise" could mean different things to different people, cruise in my books is well under 100kpa, maybe 40 - 70 or so? If you were german, you might be cruising with 3psi, at which point the conversation changes.

Define cruise?

Fred.

My girlfriend swallowed my hard disk - so the movies are allll gone. I might be able to find them later if I inspect appropriate places.

Vids of it catching air on the limiter in 5th, please.

FOurSquare (which runs on iPhone, Android, Nokia S60 etc) lets you sign in and when signing in you get a free L&P i believe. If you're the cunt that signs in the most you get free burger (and become mayor) when you bring someone else that signs in with you.

Ned! FourSquare is a fucking supermarket,

Avenga! <3

Fred.

EDIT: "Sorry Fred, we didnt really need that, so i reengineered your post a little. Ned was correct, however i think it may be spelt 4square." - you mother forker! At least you apologised, I guess. A pm saying "hey, too much, change this bit" would have been better than putting your words in my mouth. I would almost rather you put something else of yours in my mouth :-/

Guy down welly ways runs EWP on his 600hp chev v8. This is run without a thermostat and he swears by it, warms up faster, and it stays at set temp the whole time.

Wait, what? Something is badly wrong when a larger volume of water/coolant can warm up faster than a smaller one with the same heat energy input! IE, this is wrong.

You enjoy stirring shit dont you Fred.

Only if I dislike the person involved, and not otherwise. What happened to vvvvega anyway?

The EWP that is cooling this chev is completely variable, ie on start when the engine is cold it will pump a small volume to allow it to heat up faster and once at temperature it varies its flow to keep the temp between its upper and lower limits.

It does warm up faster than any engine I have ever seen. And once at temp it stays at temp regardless of revs and/or speed.

I apologise, I didn't notice the EWP thing and thought you were talking about a normal setup minus the tstat... Sorry!

However, if you do it electric without tstat, then you face a different issue, thermal shock. BMW and, apparently, toyota run full flow for this reason. The coolant flowing through is always the right temperature and as close to the engine temp as possible. When cold is introduced, it is blended with hot, and pumped through at just the right warmness to cool the engine sufficiently. Feeding icy cold radiator chilled water in isn't ideal, to say the least.

What about electronically controlled diversion valve AND electronically controlled pump. you can leave the pump doing what it always did, and make the speed match the requirement for movement, and the amount of cold introduced match the requirement for cooling. I like the sound of this. The REALLY nice benefit to an "EWP" is that you can leave it circulating coolant after you kill the key, great if you come into your driveway after driving hard the whole way home, for example.

Fred.

Guy down welly ways runs EWP on his 600hp chev v8. This is run without a thermostat and he swears by it, warms up faster, and it stays at set temp the whole time.

Wait, what? Something is badly wrong when a larger volume of water/coolant can warm up faster than a smaller one with the same heat energy input! IE, this is wrong.

A good friend of mine, FRED, has always argued that the car should have a thermostat as it increases the pressure inside of the engine and helps to reduce localised boiling. Recently I have been thinking about this a lot as I don't want to risk damaging my motor. I now believe that this is a false statement (at least in the 4AGE world) as the thermostat on a 16V motor is at the start of the cooling flow and would therefore put the engine at a lower pressure than the radiator. The image below shows the flow direction:

In addition to this I also stumbled across the FAQ on the Davies Craig website. This has made me even more confident in not running a thermostat. This is an excerpt from the page:

What do I do with the engine’s existing thermostat?

If you choose to use the Davies Craig Digital Controller you should remove the engine’s thermostat – the Controller is the new “thermostat”. The Digital Controller allows you to electronically set the engine target temperature and it adjusts the rate of coolant flow, hunting for, and then locking onto the temperature you set. You have five (5) options; 70c, 75c, 80c, 85c and 90c for either economy or performance, unlike your thermostat, which is set at one temperature by the engine manufacturer.

More can be found here: http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electric_Water_Pumps__EWP-content.aspx

So my thoughts are now far more positive and I think my solution will be very elegant. It will be ultra simple from a plumbing perspective and if the marketing material is correct then I stand to gain a decent amount of power by ditching the mechanical pump

I saw this and couldn't help but dob myself in here! No need to hide my name, though it was a nice gesture, thanks!

You're right, it doesn't perform that task on that engine! I was wrong about that. What it does instead, though, is provide FULL pump flow at little or no restriction all of the time. This is the alternative system, bmw engines do this also. If you allow the flow to fall to a low rate, AND provide no residual pump to restriction pressure, you could have hot spotting issues. I'd love to convert my mazda engine to a full time recirc system like that, it's optimal.

If you can replicate the same flow dynamics with an electric and save some jouls somewhere, great!

What it comes down to if you maintain toyotas anti hot spotting design, is the efficiency of a belt drive vs the efficiency of an alternator + switching supply + electric motor. I don't like your odds.

You can continue to disagree and ignore me though, I really don't care

Fred.

Plus our meets have been massive lately. Be good for a massive turnout

Sorry, not only will I not be there, all the bastards that I threatened if they didn't show up probably won't be either. I hope you can keep it humming like that, it was getting to be epicly fun

I'll be thinking of you bastards eating yummy BF burgers while I sit in London inhaling smog and being dumbed down by the local uneducated filth while waiting for my flight to see my girl for the first time in 9 months or so. I hope she doesn't have a pot belly sized surprise for me LOL.

Fred.

PS, might unsubscribe from the index I hope it serves someone else some use, it sure worked well for me! Thanks for all the good times, you bastards!

Yep, all true. If your manifold isn't designed for expansion, though, you'll quickly find out about it's weak spots if you get it hot

if i was you I'd bump fuel up by 5-10% from about 5psi onwards

+1, good call.

and make sure it's not running mega timing above 5000rpm/12psi

In general more RPM = more timing is OK. I realise that you probably meant full spool RPM, though. I'd expand upon this, make sure it's not running aggressive timing anywhere above 100kPa.

I like around 11.6-11.7 : 1 a/f at full load, i suspect things would not last too long if thrashed in the 13:1 zone.

There are two reasons that we run richer than stoich:

1) Incomplete atomisation/evaporation/burn, by adding more fuel, we use more of the available air, maximising the amount of mixture actually burned, and thereby maximising power too. This varies depending on injector type, size, placement, fuel pressure, pulse width, etc etc etc. The aim is to burn all of the oxygen. If the setup is nice (few are), this number will be close to stoich. Closer to stoich = more power, believe it or not.

2) To artificially cool the charge and prevent detonation. Sometimes it's most effective to do that, other times it's better to tune it relatively lean and retard the timing to match.

If the tuner made sure it didn't detonate when hot, when tuning it, then his timing figures were probably pretty retarded, but there's nothing wrong with an NA AFR assuming that other parameters match. Basically running very rich is a hack (yes, my setup was included) and you want the exact AFR that yields you no left over O2, as per item one. If your compression is too high, boost too high, octane too low, etc, then it might be a permanent part of the tune, but it's not optimum and there are other ways of achieving safety without running rich. Rich is just a convenient, easy, safe way to get started.

I also aim for a cruise tune in the high 15's (off boost).

You can go a lot leaner, but you should watch EGTs if you're taking that to the extreme. You may also lose mileage from excessive lean-ness in cruise.

may have been mentioned already as haven't read through everything. but if you want to be safe, take 10 degrees advance out of everything in the boost part of the ignition map.

Do this with caution. If the timing is already pretty low, removing 10degrees could place it in a VERY retarded spot. If timing is too retarded, turbos, valves, chambers, engines and manifolds get HOT, which is not ideal and is dangerous.

Adding some retard isn't a bad idea. just check what it is first. You probably don't want less than 15 or 10 or so, in boost.

bit lean wont blow you engine up if there is bugger all timing in it.

True, even if you are hard on it for long periods, perhaps.

i usually chop heaps of timing out past the boost level ive tuned a car to, just incase it over boosts or someone plays with the boost.

An excellent move!

Fred.

4am, time for bed, 1600cc injector 2.3 volvo to tune on FreeEMS tomorrow. Out with the ms3, yay.

Leave the stiff spring in it and just don't be heavy footed. Then you can tune it for lotsa boost when down, scare Cam, and so on

The turbo will still be more/less efficient with the new housing, regardless of boost/vac. Think of it like an exhaust restriction, if you go from a pea shooter to a 3 inch, expect the car to run lean

The lower gate will just mean you run it without hitting the cut, and allow you to forget to take it easy more

Fred.

Thanks Spencer!

Thanks Fred.

No problem

All this is pointing to me not being able to drive this fucking thing to Nats.

Drive it down, just don't drive it hard. Nats = driving like pussies anyway, we all know this, 'cept our two rotor boys

MY last tune was using an AFR of around 13.0. I believe this is rather high?

It's on the "tight" side, but depending on the fuel that you use and the compression ratio, quench, chamber design, etc, could be perfectly fine. As pressure levels go up, though, you can add more octane or more fuel, the latter cools the charge, both stop it detonating. You can also retard the timing for the same end effect.

Typically your WOT tune on an NA car will be in the 12.5 to 13.5 area, depending on many factors, and for a turbo, 10 to 12.5, my truck was running 11:1 originally, which was too rich, but it was safe and made too much power anyway. Also, your AFRs are going to be different all over the show. Idle will usually be a bit rich (though my truck ran best at or near stoich), low load and light cruise around stoich, full load as discussed, etc.

While I have no way of testing this, the turbo is not hugely bigger than the old one so potentially I will not be increasing my air volume by too much, therefore not leaning it too much.

I think it's wrong to assume that it'll not do much. If the design is a lot better (or worse) then it could make a significant difference and potentially be better even when smaller.

Make some time to get the wideband on the car, then get some GC to tweak things on the way down

BIG +1

get to nats, ill bring my tail pipe tube, you can tune while bored on friday and do skids at gymkana on saturday.

Take this offer! Zep, you just stuff a tube a foot or two up the tail pipe (to avoid clean air contamination) and the sensor mounts in that and that mounts to the tail pipe. Many people tune like this all the time. Try to get it connected to the link for logging, though. If not, you can still do it just by watching the numbers while you drive. My road trip volvo got tuned by feel without a wideband while driving across Florida, and that was with brand new software that had never been used before. It was NA, though, and doing the same with a turbo car is riskier and more difficult for a variety of reasons.

Does anyone coming to nats actually know how to tune a link?

Dude, this doesn't matter. It doesn't even really exist. When a tuning place that is charging by the hour says "we only tune links" it's because if they say "we'll tune your megajizz" then they lose the margin that they put on the links that they sell If the software is available and doesn't suck, anyone with some basic knowledge can do an at least OK tune on almost any non-extreme car/setup. It's not the black art that it always seemed to be...

IE, there is no reason for Cam to do it over Jess, they could take turns, it doesn't matter much

When my ute got tuned, at 3am, in the rain, on snow tyres, it was done by my step brother who had never tuned anything before. Neither had I. WELL before FreeEMS was even a dream. He picked it up in minutes and got it running pretty nice inside an hour or so of screwing around trying not to end up in a tree sideways in the rain. Yep, tuned while sideways/free revving in the wet. Traction makes it easier, though

Fred.

OK, I got pointed to this thread to comment, so here goes:

Just reading the first post, comments are as follows:

Yes, your tuner probably set your boost cut just above your previous gate pressure. You can/should move that to just above your new gate pressure, IF your new gate pressure is what you actually want to run, and the engine guts can take what you're trying to throw at them (just see this link for what happens when you ignore engine strength and just make power...).

Once you move it there, your higher boost ranges will probably NOT be tuned. They MAY be close enough, but could be far away from correct. In fact, your ENTIRE map could be pretty far from correct due to the increase in efficiency from the newer turbo with better flowing housings, IE, it could be LEAN everywhere. End result, you need to re-tune the car, this is how all MAP based systems are, and why AFM is more convenient once setup.

Time for an interlude: PROFESSIONAL TUNING IS NOT NECESSARY!!! nor is dyno tuning, in fact, your average street tune will always be better than your average dyno tune because of the amount of time spent on it, and the variety of conditions under which it operates while being driven compared to faking it on a load cell for a few hours...

Interlude two: HAVING A GOOD WIDEBAND ON A TURBO CAR IS NECESSARY, at least while tuning, and desirable all the time to ensure nothing is out of spec and going to cause a melt down. If you have a good wideband on the car, and you have the tuning software, take a log and see what you need to do to the mixtures in various places, see what the timing is like, see where it cuts, and what hte interface tells you about where it should cut, etc.

IE, take a friend and laptop out, somewhere quiet and do small test runs and review data and make changes, saving and commenting each file set (tune and logs) as you go. It's fine to make live changes while driving (normal and good) but be aware that if you do, your logs are effectively useless because you wont see where stuff was changed and therefore what hte data means will be unknown afterward.

As for the RPM cut, how is the head and bottom end built? At what RPM will the rod bolts say goodbye and leave you with oil on the street and dents in your engine bay? How about the valve spring, cam, rocker situation? float is bad and can cause a dropped valve. If it's built for 8k, sure, raise the limit, but FFS, don't drive it hard there without first easing into those areas and logging and ensuring the AFRs are good and the timing is good and there is no rattling and so on.

As for looking at the maps and saying "appears to be tuned to 8k" i assume that you see a table that extends to 8k with some values in it. Do NOT assume that it's tuned to 8k, it almost certainly isn't. If it was, your limits would almost certainly be higher already...

Moving to a 10psi spring does not remove the requirement to re-tune for a new turbo/cooler/exhaust/intake manifold/cams/whatever. If you mod the car, expect to adjust your tune, or risk damage.

Again, fuck the "pro" tuning, spend the money on putting a wide band in the thing, and learn to tune it yourself (it's really not difficult at all) then you'll understand your machine and its limitations and be in a much more powerful and less vulnerable position. Take my advice on this, even if you ignore all of the other shit above. It is, after all, your risk if you decide to not adjust for new hw and risk blowing stuff up. I understand taking such risks, see above link

Other posts:

Iou:

+1 on on not flooring it till tuned, fuck the pro, though.

+1 on the fuel curve being wrong for above explained efficiency reasons

+1 on different sized turbo screwing with curves

+1 on more boost doing the same, but only for the previous reason, ie, more efficiency.

zep:

pulling boost pressure down does not solve the problem. your total system volumetric efficiency has changed. what that means is that at the same boost level, you get MORE air (or less, but not the same) and thus the numbers used to calc fuel delivery are now wrong, and need adjusting.

ps: MAP based ecus DO add more fuel with more map with all else equal, cept megasquirt2e, but ms is gay, and ken, one of the authors of ms2e, is a moron. If you're reading that ken, feel free to give me your number, we can talk about it

pps: standard cars are usually AFM which KNOWS how much air is going in, and to the best of its ability gets it right all the time (the ability is usually too low, though... hence standalones and chips and so on)

Mikuni: good point re linearity of boost. a log will reveal this too. you could be spiking above nominal as it spools and tripping a too-close cut.

slacker:

BIG +1 for saving what is on it exactly as is, and backing that up to email/multiple computers/houses. Adding to that, save and label everything on each session or sub-session such that you have comments on what was better, worse, different wrong, why you changed shit, what you changed weather, etc.

Secondly: It's true that it will keep working out the top of the table (probably, unless link really really sucks, which i doubt) but i wouldn't trust it to be tuned to the point of reliability up there, so I wouldnt take the car up there without checking lots of stuff, or making your octane really high (just add 1/3 - 1/2 toluene with your fuel and you'll be good for lean/too much advance while you tune...)

Re sounds like not opening gate up: Does the car have a gay screamer pipe? If so, sure, cam is right, it wont open (much) till it reaches target. Is the spring a known value? if it is, what is it, if not, is it chinese? if so, mine was 18psi OOTB (out of hte box) which suited me, but might be too much depending on your engine bottom end, see above link again for a reminder

+1 on one thing at a time unless you are certain that you know what you're doing.

Interlude, if it has a master fuel value, you could bump it up to be safer for the time being, but you're still risking top end shit being lean because map values can change steeply there sometimes...

+1 on screenies of the app and tune.

slacker again: define slightly? at low power levels sure, but as you reach the place that was the limit on the old turbo, the new one could be right in the centre of hte island maxing its flow per pressure and minimising its back pressure... ie, we're all guessing, guess conservatively if you like your engine in one piece.

Borrow wideband: no wideband???? and you're running into boost cut???? STOP DRIVING IT NOW.

zep, 200kpa boost cut is exactly 15psi, that kpa value is from a perfect vacuum, 100kpa is NA. Where is your sensor limit? do not let it go past that, or the ecu wont add more fuel and you'll definitely fuck up...

OK, let me reload and make sure no more posts rolled in.

OK, good enough, enjoy!

Fred.

PS, if some CUNT fucks with this post, I will punch them in the face when I get back to NZ. Because 3 years will have passed they wont be expecting it. Saving thread for reference. It's sad when I don't feel like my shit will stay in the thread i post it in... poor form past mods.

Less than 24 hours left, still gotta finish packing and backing up files and weld doors and so on. Will post from more relaxed environment.

Yes I do! 3 of them, I think The first, sadly cut short in the excitement And plenty of stills, too.

I found it a slightly more loving home than that, but thanks for the offers

It even got a wof the other day after some arsehole took photos of me post brake testing him post him tail gating me. The only thing they proved was that i was driving without one, so I made it that I was on my way to get one, and got one...

Fred.

Top night!!!! Thank you to everyone!!!

I hope you all enjoyed the show!

Special thanks to Preston for his efforts bringing the 4age, Rula for helping him, and Dan for providing inet and power to code with!!! And heaps more too.

Fred.

OK, everything is organised mu ha ha ha. Can someone bring marsh mellows and those sticks? That'd be good.

Pfft, we nice and easy/natural

+1

Will bring my new whip and sticker it up.

What is a "whip" ? That bastard should be part of a bit of a sideshow act that should be very entertaining

Wait, you've got a girl again, and are whipped? Since when did this happen?

Shit yeah! Keen for a burger. Will be good to say bye to that bastard Fred too

Will bring my new whip and sticker it up.

What is a "whip" ? That bastard should be part of a bit of a sideshow act that should be very entertaining

by 16, do you mean the 13th? If it is the 13th, im a no go as its 1 day before pay day and i have ZERO cash

Got enough gas? I'll shout yours, it should be a good laugh, don't miss it for that reason! Same goes for that Dan slacker with the BFMR, assuming he makes it free of pink stickers lol.

I'm looking forward to this!

Fred.

NZ's second FreeEMS powered ride, now with improved ignition tune and more MPG

The truck was the first NZ one, but the engine exploded making enormous power with conrods smaller than my flacid... anyway... it died!

Things are looking good for attendance!

Fred.

Not even a single ROFL, nor a taker, no one, wow. The poor thing is going to be lonely!

This isn't really a for sale thread, though I do want some money for the fucking thing, it's more a "who has electronic knowledge and a desire to be my ignition and timing code test bitch once i leave" thread.

I'm quite attached to the hotel hyundai... it has been my home for 6 months, but now I must leave and it needs to move on to a new ruthless test pilot. I would love to see videos of it on youtube with a twincam 4g63 and ITBs with EFI and FreeEMS, and I would love to have buy back rights, though in 3 years, probably I wont care anymore, but you never know.

Mostly, though, I just want FreeEMS to continue to be daily driven until the next car runs and can take over test duties.

Currently spankme is taking it, and will give it love ,and burnouts until he gives it a new home and my bank account a boost.

Good:

Geuine OS appeal

FreeEMS programmable ign if you understand a soldering iron and some buffer chips and regulators and shit (you can't keep my puma, that's going to usa and maybe spain)

5 speed!

RWD!

Electric everything

Oil pressure still good!

Mostly rust free!

Tow bar!

Front brakes should be OK, but I am hard on pads. They were new a while ago.

Bad:

I've driven it, from reinga to the south side of wellington and cape paliser and back!

I've run it out of oil twice, but noticed and babied it and its been ok

When i got it it was mixing coolant with oil, so i gave it some stop leak love, and its been running sweet like that ever since

Rusted out under the bottom of the windscreen, badly, rust killed, pitting filled, painted, and big holes urethaned fill to stop leaks, but started leaking again on driver side with heavy rain. Could do with a better fix, but will get through one more wof as is.

Rear brakes may need some love, but are currently OK.

The tow bar is bike rack spec only, though I did drag trailers with it, it's NOT recommended

Some guy called "fred" wrote the code that runs the ign timing...

You OS lads told me that its a cortina with mitsi engine/box. I have to admit, I actually like the way it drives. On my favourite race track/road it did a 3:49 with what, 90hp? In contrast, my 400hp truck on R888s did it in 3:41. Both were fucking scary, but in different ways. Best time ever was 3:26 in old gts skyline with lots of undercar goodies. It's a drivers road.

Before freeems it pulled nicely to 5k with redline 6k, but now with the air filter removed and 10 degrees more timing it pulls ok out to 6k, if a little noisy.

This car is a piece of history. It's the 3rd freeems car, and it's where I lived while I developed the system for the last 6 months.

The previous owner had it for 21 years. I've had it for 1.5 years and put 10 or 15kkm on it.

The paint is faded in spots, and scratched here and there (dinghy carried on roof etc), the left front guard got a little raped in the front at some point, but is mostly straight. The back seat got some panel beating one night at 430am when I locked myself out while scrubbing my teeth at taka beach, i kicked my way through it from inside the boot...

if nothing else, this thread should give a few people a bit of a laugh.

Someone pay my IRD bill and keep FreeEMS up and running in the short term! Do it...

The morning after my first night homeless having slept in the car at Milford beach on the North Shore of JAFA land.

The morning after the second night, at Lake Pupuke also on the shore.

From the morning after the 3rd night:

What I woke up to:

Viewing at my last OS auckland meet on the 13th, and I still need it till the 15th.

I hope you enjoyed the thread!

Fred.