rob

Nah, I didn't get the impression that the guy had done this specific swap before - and our discussion about bearings etc. all happened when I dropped the bits off at his workshop, so before he'd been able to measure anything up. He had to ask me what spline the axles were so I'm not totally convinced he knows the full ins and outs of these diffs. The guy rebuilds diffs for a living though, and appears to be the only outfit in Christchurch so I figure he's capable-enough. More pro than I am anyway..

Ah so it's the bearing width thats different! That would probably help explain the different part numbers. When I read elsewhere that the LSD centre was larger, I just assumed it was the circumference of the centre that was bigger - also that Celica-Supra MA46 Diff Swap howto lists the non-LSD MA46 bearing as having a slightly smaller ID than the LSD MA46 bearing.

Pretty sure they're the same ratios - counted up 41 teeth on the crownwheel and 10 on the pinion in the open-diff, and same on the altezza crownwheel.

Damn.. didn't think to ask what type of altezza the diff came from - Stupid. Have fired off an email to the guy I bought it from to find out... just waiting on his reply. However when I had the open diff and the altezza diff side-by-side, the crown wheels looked freakin' identical size-wise, the only difference I could spot was a slight variation in the shape of the side of the altezza crownwheel (i.e. not the teeth) - maybe this is the cause of the different offset that some people mention..

Kicking myself for not pulling it all apart and doing some more measurements before I took it in to the shop - Had just assumed it'd be smooth-sailing.. Foolish

It's really just wait-and-see at the moment I guess - the diff guy reckoned he'd have it ready by the end of the week - and as of yet I haven't received any phone calls telling me the bearings are different so I'll cross my fingers and hope for the best!

Will post updates when I find out more

So.. took the Altezza LSD, the live axle diffhead housing and the axles into the diff shop yesterday.

I had assumed you could use the Altezza crownwheel and pinion, but the guy said they had a different offset and that he'd have to swap the live-axle diffhead's crown wheel onto the LSD centre and use it with the live-axle pinion in the housing, ok thats not really a big deal as they were the same ratio anyway..

He then proceeded to tell me that he was pretty sure the Altezza's carrier bearings had a larger outer-diameter and would most likely not fit into the live-axle diffhead housing. I told him that I had it on pretty good authority (teh intarwebs said!) that the only difference is the bearing's inner-diameter, and this is due to the LSD-centre being larger that the open-diff's.

So we kinda agree to disagree, and he says he'll do the swap and that he'll give me a ring if anything pops up (i.e. bearings are different, as he says).

I head home and decide to try and edjamacate myself some more on this bearing bizniz, I manage to find a website selling Toyota Part #90368-50006 as the side bearings for an LSD SXE10 Altezza. This part number matches the part number given for a "Tacoma" (I'm guessing this is American for Hilux) F-series front diff, on the "Celica-Supra (MA45/46/47) diff swap" post that is on various sites around the net (I figure you guys have already seen it). This post suggests that this 90368-50006 bearing *may* be necessary to run an LSD in the F-series housing, but the author isn't 100% sure. The post also has the carrier bearing part# for the live-axle w/ LSD as 90368-50024 - different part# to the Altezza/Tacoma, but the guy has got some measurements taken from the various bearings which lists the Tacoma's bearing as having identical dimensions to the MA46. So assuming bearings #90368-50006 are what my Altezza diff is using, I'm thinking that they should fit into the live-axle housing, despite being different part numbers.

Is anyone aware of there being any variation in the outer-diameter of the carrier bearings between live-axle and IRS F-series diffs? or maybe even between live-axle diffs from different cars etc?

Basically I'm kinda suspecting that this diff guy is just telling me that the Altezza bearings aren't going to work so he can pad-out his fee.. Then again I could be mistaken, or equally so could he. If he comes back to me and says that the Altezza bearings won't work and I need to fork out for some new bearings, it'd be nice to be well-enough informed to tell him that he's spinning stories - or not

He also predicted (carrier bearing issues aside) that the old pinion bearing would be the first bit to go once the LSD was being used in the live-axle, as the LSD centre will put more force on it and eventually bust it. This seemed to make sense, but I was wondering if any of you guys who've swapped an LSD centre into a non-LSD housing (with a used pinion bearing) have had this happen, and if so how long did it last before giving out? (obviously this would depend somewhat on the condition of the bearing to start with). The price he quoted for a diff rebuild to replace the pinion bearing was more than I can afford at the moment

yeah man, all good.

i'll take the word of someone who's done it over a random forum post i think i read somewhere and now can't seem to find

thanks for your help!

thanks heaps for the info guys.. crazy, i could've sworn i read elsewhere that the clutch lsd's were usually sweet with the non-lsd axles and it was the factory lsd that needed them shortened slightly due to the torsen centre being all full of gears n stuff ah well getting that done is no biggy..

cheers!

ok.. i'm gonna dig up an old thread here.

would someone who's swapped an aftermarket altezza lsd into an f-series live-axle be able to tell me what side bearings i need to use?

i've got a complete altezza irs nugget which has had some sort of clutch-type lsd installed into it. i was hoping to be able to use the altezza bearings as they're probably at least 20 years younger that the ones that are currently in my live-axle diffhead...

if it turns out that i have to use side-bearings specific to the live-axle head, does anyone know the part numbers?

also i've read that you need to give your axles a bit of a trim if you're installing an altezza torsen lsd into a live-axle, but is this necessary when using the clutch-type diffs?

tia

Yeah those 17 yr olds in baseball caps are just like the Hell's Angels bro.

I mean Christchurch has pretty much turned into a gang-run wasteland, with rival boyracer factions fighting it out over turf so they can sling meth to schoolkids to fund their insatiable appetite for fossil fuels.

Yeah right. Get some perspective please guys.

---

Mikuni: I have attended the skids in Christchurch many times and always found the atmosphere to be generally friendly and social, its just lots of people having a good time on a friday night - there just happens to be a few cars lighting it up in the middle of nowhere (before anyone flys off the handle, just think about what an APPROPRIATE response to this actually is). Admittedly this was 4-5 years back, but to suggest the "feel" of the thing has changed so drastically in such a short time is a bit much.. As far as I can tell, the "gang-like" behavior is a fantasy supported by the media (who loves an easy story), the police (who'll jump at any opportunity to get some more funding), the lobby-groups (such as noise-off etc, who are just vindictive cunts), public figures such as bob parker and clayton cosgrove (politico-sluts who'll say virtually anything if it'll get them in front of a camera for 5mins), and the ill-informed public.

This bottling/shooting is the ONLY violent incident to occur at the diesels as far as I know, yet suddenly Christchurch boyracers are being equated to hardcore gangs, such as the Highways etc.

KK-Kolonel: There is already plenty of laws that govern how people are to behave in their cars, the problems that are occurring in Christchurch are not due to lack of rules governing how to act in a car, it is due to lack of ENFORCEMENT of the EXISTING rules.

The problem is not that people aren't put off by the punishments (afaik "loss of traction" is an instant 28day impound - can't imagine many people would be too happy about this), its that the police are unable/unwilling to enforce the rules to a degree where people start worrying about getting caught.

The reason why I associate the recent push for law changes with the violent attack on the police is that the calls for crushing cars from the more-extreme parts of society were not being heeded by the authorities until they decided they wanted revenge for that squad car's windows.

In the past the police themselves have actually spoken up against crushing cars as all it would do is make those who had wound up on the wrong side of the law more desperate (and therefore more likely to act out erratically/violently or run from the police), its a shame that all that research they've commissioned into human behavior goes straight out the window the moment they've been embarrassed...

Giving the police the authority to destroy people's vehicles is going to hurt innocent people FAR more than it's going to hurt the crims. After all, they don't give a fuck about the rules anyway and if their prize-possession is destroyed by the state I don't expect that they're just going to take it on the chin, straighten up and fly right. A more likely response from those types is an increase in car-thefts and cars crashing into police stations...

Insani-T: I'm up for the debate bro, and don't worry, I'm under no false impressions as to what the general opinion is on here. The country certainly doesn't "weed out drop kicks" by beating said "dropkicks" with a big stick. We try and EDUCATE the "dropkicks" and treat them like people in order to facilitate dialog and problem resolution.

Its great you an KK are so willing to send endless numbers of young people to jail for what is, at the end of the day, a "nusiance" crime. Have you given ANY thought for what jail is going to do to these (already disenfranchised) young people? It aint gonna help them OR society, I can tell you...

Oh and I see they've caught the wee bugger who was hiffing bottles at the police. Good. Note that its just the one guy.. hmm..

Its a real pity the police didn't "go in there in full riot gear and use force". If they had, there would have been no bottling, no ridiculous kneejerk reaction across the country and we wouldn't be faced with the possibility of some car-crushing and anti-car-modification laws being passed because SOMEONE THREW A BOTTLE.

I'm going to try and break this down into smaller bits for you so here goes:

1) Thug bottles police car

2) The Cops, unable to find actual perpetrator, resort to levelling blame at poorly-defined social group (what is a boyracer anyway? i'm willing to bet that someone at sometime has considered YOU to be one)

3) The Media, already in the middle of an anti-boy-racer drive, dutifully pick up the story and blame Christchurch's car culture, instead of the actual culprits.

4) The Public, by now well-conditioned into rabidly championing any "good cause" put forth by the media, scream and yell for cars to be crushed and hands to be chopped off etc etc ad nauseum

5) The Christchurch Car Owners who, unlike the police and and govt, lack publicity departments, are treated as if they were a single, organised entity that totally condones this sort of behaviour.

I think you need to get your facts straight before you accuse people of being all "Fuck The Police". All I'm doing is trying to present an alternative, more balanced view of the issue as it seems some of you are struggling with it.

If you aren't capable/willing of entering in constructive discourse maybe you should cut your loses and go home bro...

KK-Kolonel: I still can't see the connection between preventing assault/firearm offences and passing a law that allows the state to crush cars... How do you know the perpetrators even own cars? Why should hundreds(thousands?) of "innocent" people be at risk at having their vehicle destroyed because someone thought it would be funny to attack the police?! These things are totally separate issues! The fact these offences occurred at a "boyracer gathering" is moot, it could quite easily have been at any large gathering where alcohol/teenage bravado were involved.

Like I said, we don't need more laws, we just need the police to enforce the ones we already have!

Let me just get this out of the way: FUCK SINGAPORE.SERIOUSLY.

If you think the way you they run their country is correct then holy-sheep-shagging-jesus-christ! I'm not sure if its going to be possible to convince you to take a rational approach to this.

You are right in saying that this issue is bigger than any 1 incident, but this massive wave of public vitriol and support for new legislation was triggered by the bottling of the police car the other weekend.

Im dubious as to whether a BB gun was used. I saw comments on stuff.co.nz that claimed to be from people who were there and they said there was no guns involved. The police officer's own statement says that the "pellets" hit his window "5 seconds" before the bottles. He could easily have mistaken the impact of a stone or even one of the initial bottles for a "slug".

At any rate, it seems the biggest problem people have both here and elsewhere is separating the actions of individual criminals from that of the group as a whole.

My objections are to draconian legislation (regarding car mods etc) being passed and to the demonisation of a large, ill-defined social group as a result of this shooting/bottling of a police car.

We already have NUMEROUS laws that cover EVERY SINGLE ONE of these offences!

Care to explain how giving the police the right to crush someone's car is going to prevent a similar situation from occurring?

Acceptable social behaviour is already "set in concrete", I dont see why the laws that successfully(i guess this is debatable?) govern the rest of society need to be amended to deal with criminal acts that WE ALREADY HAVE LAWS FOR.

Part of the solution to this problem (apart from more govt funding to motorsport) would be for the cops to ACTUALLY ENFORCE THE EXISTING LAWS instead of crying to the media and the public for new ones (which I'm guessing they'll be just as ineffective at enforcing as the current ones).

RT: No I wasn't there.

At the end of the day what has happened here?

A few people chucked a couple of bottles at a cop car.

Big Fucking Whoop, seriously.

I'm not even sure that offence would warrant jail-time, yet it seems it is enough to cause half of the country (gearheads included!) to switch off their higher-level brain functions and descend into a pack of rabid, unthinking crazies.

If only the country cared so strongly about issues such as domestic violence and suicide...

I think the focus on the Christchurch Car Scene instead of the ACTUAL INDIVIDUALS who committed the crime is unhealthy and dangerous for society. If you start persecuting otherwise law-abiding people as if they were criminals, many of them will start to question why they bother to abide by the law in the first place...

PLEASE TRY TO UNDERSTAND THIS:

I AM NOT SUPPORTING THE THUGS WHO BOTTLED THE COPS

I AM NOT CALLING THEM "VICTIMS"

ALL IM ASKING IS THAT PEOPLE PUT THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE

The only way a solution to this problem is going to come about is if people stop pointing fingers and blaming the ill-defined group that is "boyracers" and start focusing on the INDIVIDUAL TROUBLEMAKERS who are ruining it for everyone else.

RT: Do you have anything solid that suggests that this group is actually any bigger (other than reports from the media), and that the problems are really much worse?

I've lived in Christchurch all my life and I too was involved in the "scene" 8-10years ago and it seems to me the problem has largely remained static. The only thing that has changed as far as I can see is the slanted reporting that is skewing people's perceptions and a series of shitty mayors who leverage's people's bigotry to gain public support.

I hope this thread doesn't get locked. This issue is a pretty big deal for everyone here and I don't think its in our best interests to just ignore it.

There isn't a NZ car scene. There are lots of different groups, entirely isolated with the only similarities happen to be 4 wheels. We're just not on the level of driving around town and causing trouble with police.. so I'm not sure what you expect from us? If new draconian laws come in because of this it won't be our fault that's for sure.

This could just easily be applied to the "group" that is labelled "boyracers" in Christchurch. Entirely isolated groups.

Why do you assume driving around town equates to causing trouble with the police? We still have freedom of movement in NZ, right?

I would have thought, since you have been persecuted by the police in the past, that you might be just slightly more understanding of the position of the law-abiding christchurch car owners who are just as appalled at the actions of these thugs as you.

You might want to remember that not everyone is smart enough to "not take the bait" when the police wind them up, does this mean they deserve what they get?

So its ok for these fuckwits and they are fuckwits to bottle a cop car, but its not ok for the cop to then turn around and fuck up their car? Sorry but that is shit, if you take on the cops for being a tosser then you better expect a bitch slap to the back of the head.

I never said it was OK. It seems you are still having trouble discerning between the ACTUAL CRIMINALS WHO BOTTLED THE COP CAR and the rest of the Christchurch Car fraternity.

Are you one of those people who goes on about all black people being thieves and all asians being bad drivers?

Fuck if I was dumb enough to attack a cop, then I deserve to get a baton to the chops.

Well you certainly are proving to be a rather obtuse individual...

These morons arent what our club represents, we go out of our way to organise real events where we can use our cars for what they were built for. People need to stop being wankers and putting others lives in danger by racing on the streets and organise something real.

So you think the rest of the law-abiding Christchurch car owners (98% of them) like being associated with thuggish criminal acts?

Its nice to know that you are willing to write off HUNDREDS of people you have NEVER MET purely because someone you also never met wrote a nasty story about them in the newspaper.

Hate to say it but its this sort of attitude that allowed the Nazis to herd Jews into cattle-carts. (godwins law can fuck right off)

Dont you think that if they start to follow the law that the police and media would leave them alone? These groups have no one to blame for this mess but themselves. And we all know it.

What you seem unable to grasp is that the VAST MAJORITY of "car enthusiasts" in Christchurch do follow the law. Why should such a large and diverse group be so severely punished because of the actions of a few idiots?

Way to totally miss every point I made. With critical thinking as excellent as yours I guess its no surprise the media garbage resonates so well with you.

If the "NZ Car Scene" gets stuffed up as a result of this crap then it'll be because "the scene" rolls over and accepts the official story as to why this is happening, thereby allowing a whole raft of new draconian legislation regarding car mods etc to get rammed through parliament.

Sure some of these guys are dumbasses, but most of them are just kids, PERSECUTED kids. Who here wasn't a bit of a dumbass at 17?

Theres also a few dumbasses on this forum but I don't see anyone calling for their cars to be crushed..

If you really want to do something to help then first stop referring to "boyracers" as if they were some sort of organised group and recognise it for what it is: groups of mates going out and enjoying their cars.

Talk to people you know about this. Write letters to the newspaper. Talk/write to your MP.

A friend of mine has actually approached the Police with concerns that this over-zealous police response to "boyracers" will have a negative affect on their ability to conduct ACTUAL police-work (i.e. solving robberies, murders, assaults and rapes).

Stop crucifying these guys and girls because of the actions of a couple of idiots!

I see people are bemoaning what they see as the imminent loss of NZ's modified car culture out one side of their mouths and calling for the crushing of cars out the other. These people need to realise that by supporting such a drastic response they're only providing more justification for those who do seek to ban all forms of car modification.

That some people wish to give the state the power to destroy people's personal property in response to some bottles being thrown at a police car honestly boggles my mind. You're just being manipulated - Wake up and stop being such a chump!

I think the police and the media have a responsibility not to wind up volatile (and stupid) segments of society.

Just because the media have a long history of feeding the flames of inflammatory social issues doesn't mean it is a good thing or that it should continue. If you are able to acknowledge the fact that the media will over-hype and sensationalise an issue then why do you still swallow that big-stinking-chode that they dish up as news and grin about it?

I never said there was no problem, I just think the rabid, angry, STUPID reaction of the general public isn't helping it, and in fact is actually making the problem worse.

The loud idiots are always going to be the ones who are willing to say dumb shit in front of the camera. You cant judge an entire social group based on what a few fuckwits have said on the telly. If we were going to follow this logic of blaming an entire segment of society for the actions of a few of it's members then we should be locking up every polynesian male because some of them have been known to steal from time to time.

Yeah, the COPS SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER than to send 1 cop car - and they actually violated their own operational procedures by doing this. The police's job is to KEEP THE PEACE, not rile up stupid drunks. The officer should have followed procedure and waited for backup. No way people would have dared to throw bottles at a paddy wagon full of cops in riot gear.

Cop cars get smashed all the time. You're only hearing about this particular one because the media is reporting on every possible infraction that can be attributed to the "boyracers".

I remember last year, when that poor deaf girl's body was found at spencer park, The Press decided it was appropriate to declare that spencer park was a 'known boyracer hangout', pretty much flat-out implying that "boyracers" had a hand in her murder, despite there being no evidence to suggest this at all (also people I talked to at the time regarded spencer park as more of a "known picnic spot for families" than an illegal drag strip). All that stuff you've been fed about "Journalistic Integrity" is just lies, these pricks have NO integrity; readership and the advertising dollars it brings are the only things that really matters to them at the end of the day.

I have to agree with you on one thing though, but its people with attitudes like yours who are the problem and are unwilling/incapable of understanding what the solution is. Its actually pretty sad that you totally hang your brothers-in-arms out to dry at the slightest provocation by the media, I'd hate to be one of your mates.

The sad fact is that Christchurch is actually a pretty boring city and that these lame-ass "nuisance crimes" is usually about the worst Christchurch residents have to deal with. maybe what we really need is some ACTUAL crime to keep the police busy down here...

I never accused anyone of taking sides with the media, just that it seems some people have bought the "official story" hook, line and sinker. No issue is ever clear-cut and there is always two (or more!) sides to everything. I guess I just expected better from people who profess to be part of NZ's car culture...

Dismissing this whole debacle as just the activity of "angsty teenagers" is incredibly foolish, and indicates that you don't really have much of a grasp of what is actually going on here.

Its not just that the targeting of an ENTIRE SEGMENT of society in response to the actions of a few "angsty teens" is counter-productive to fixing the actual problem, its the public's apparent sanctioning of these draconian actions by the authorities that genuinely makes me worry about the state of New Zealand society - who's hobby is gonna be next to go just because a couple of dickheads act like fuckups in front of a camera?

Are we as a country just going to continually give-up more and more of our freedoms and liberties every time some thug commits a crime and the media tells us its an "epidemic"? Come on guys, thats just like America, NZ is better than that!

---

If you replace "boyracer" with "asian" or "maori" then the approach that is being taken by the authorities (and apparently being supported by the public) wouldn't even have been suggested. Why is it OK to persecute someone for their interests (which happen to be shared by the vast majority of people on this site!) but not their skin colour or racial heritage?

go with the oldschool jap 14s

anything 20" is bound to be tacky and tasteless

i'm really disappointed at the number of fuckwits on here who just swallow and regurgitate the media and the cop's take on this issue.

i would have thought that being a CAR CLUB you guys would have a better grasp than most on what is actually happening here.

before i go any further i'm just going to point out that i'm not a "boyracer", i don't go driving round and round the four aves in christchurch and my car doesnt have a loud exhaust or cut springs.

i am however appalled at the way this issue has been whipped up and over-hyped by the media. you do all realise that this rash of reported "boyracer activity" only started up again after the authorities heard about that stupid german tv show, right?

the news media have no scruples and will print anything if they think people will read it. the speculative "reporting" on a "boyracer gathering" that hadn't even occurred (three factions wtf?) and the weak-as-piss linking of the christchurch car scene with neo-nazi skinheads (based on one silly tart's bebo theme!) are perfect examples of them not letting the truth get in the way of a story.

it saddens me that it seems some of you have immediately joined in with the general public in baying for the blood of the entire chch car scene just because A FEW DRUNK IDIOTS DID SOMETHING STUPID. what do you think everyone in chch got on the phone to each other beforehand and agreed to bottle a police car?

on the topic of that fucking police car, what did the cops think was going to happen if they sent a LONE officer into a crowd of 300 unruly youths? i could have written that bloody script for them... if one was more cynical you'd almost think it was a setup.

also i'd be interested to know how many police cars get bottled every weekend during the course of the police doing their job. i'd imagine this is actually a pretty common occurrence when the police are out busting up domestic disputes or dealing with other violent offenders etc, yet we only hear about it because it has something to to with the "boyracers".

----

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Students/hrb9701.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism

check out these links and tell me this "boyracer problem" isnt a textbook case of a moral panic... the more observant of you might notice that the public's recent reaction to other social issues like tagging and methamphetamine also fit the pattern of mass-hysteria created by reporting that presents negative events in such a way that links these otherwise unrelated acts together.

in summary PLEASE try to THINK more critically about what you read in the news and don't just blindly swallow everything you read as it is presented to you.

moral panics like this only occur because people blindly sign up to them based on opinions they pick up from spin in the news, do your part for society and don't be a fool!

remember that virtually all of new zealand's newspapers (and stuff.co.nz) are owned by a single company: FAIRFAX MEDIA!

if you havent found it already, this page: http://www.billzilla.org/4agstock.htm has some good 4age info - especially if you need to work out what kind of 4age you've got.

theres pics of the different port designs about halfway down.. big port is quite wide and flat compared to the smallport.

also smallports have an oil return at the back of the head on the right side - if you've got one of these you'd probably want a smallport block so its got somewhere to plug into, plus those extra ribs cant hurt

ive got a smallport sitting in a mates garage and could get you some pics of the block/head if you want