I don't think that's pushy when their own email response says 10 working days and the web site somewhere says 20 I think. I understand the waiting until after your particular request is handled before complaining. Now I know about OIA requests thanks to them and the Police report when mine comes through I might do one to see how many applications they have actually had to process the last few months. That information should be publicaly available. They are putting more and more data online now too. You can see all the re-registrations here:

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/how-the-motor-vehicle-register-affects-you/motor-vehicle-registrations-dashboard-and-open-data/

According to that there were 17 re-registered cars in November. In October there were only 8. And in September 12. Don't know how many would be CA03 process ones though. A lot probably have old papers/lapsed existing rego.

You can filter on motorcycles too. 24 in November.

I am trying to find the actual API for this stuff which should be about somewhere I think thanks to all the open government data stuff. If you're a computer geek type like me they are quite fun to play with.

Just an update on mine. Been 30 working days now from the third time I sent in the CA03 application (over 3 months since I started the process!) and am still waiting to hear. I rang again yesterday (long wait times - crappy music on hold) and after 45 minutes all they could say was it was still being reviewed and someone looked at it 2 weeks ago (last time I rang incidentally). Other than that no extra info. All they could say was they have had a lot of applications recently.

Does anyone know what they actually do? We provide all the papers they need so what is their actual process? Police confirm it's not stolen, the testing place witnesses the chassis number and gives you a letter saying so, the Vintage Car Club verifies it's period correct and I signed a legal document saying I own it. I don't understand what the 'process' actually involves and can't find it on the web site at all. If we knew the process it would help when we have to apply to be able to send in the right things first time.

I think even if it comes through now I won't be able to get it looked at by the testing place until sometime early next year now I imagine. In early October when we went to see them to witness the chassis number they said they were already booked till Christmas. Plus I'll have to sort out a LVV inspector too I guess but no point doing that till I know I am even allowed to. Don't know what to do it I can't VIN it? 

As someone else said in another thread might be time for a different hobby than old cars!

Goat, any word on yours yet?

11 hours ago, Bling said:

What sort of things do you think you have been unfairly failed on?

Yes, be interesting to know. Especially things a WOF place thinks LVVTA got wrong? That doesn't sound right at all.

I'd say the whole process is a bit Mickey Mouse but it's rather more Harry Potter - you need to know the right magic words to say to the right people!

How did you word the OIA? For mine I just asked for any information relating to the chassis number. So basically I got back something saying they had no information at all about that chassis number. So an OIA request to find out they know nothing.

I don't see why NZTA can't do that themselves?

Goat, I feel your pain!

The Police have an online form for OAI requests. This is what I used and it worked: https://forms.police.govt.nz/oiarequest

With my Austin 7 I also got back the "10 business days"  reply when I resubmitted my documents (for the third time) but I have always been told it now takes about 20 working days. After not hearing anything back from them in 20 days I rang them again, spent ages waiting to talk to someone who then had to transfer me to a more senior person, more waiting, then she just said they had the application, it was "being reviewed" and it would take 20 working days. So I just wait I guess?

The VINing place is now probably booked out till March I imagine. And even then I think it will need a LVVTA inspection too. I first contacted NZTA in August so at this rate it might end up taking almost half a year to get the paper work done and the car registered (if they let me).

A friend up north with a similar car talked to a vehicle repairer who just rang Wellington apparently and said this car needs a VIN and was just issued one! So his car now has a plate affixed and he's able to go through the rest of the process. No CA03 involved at all.

I started writing up the process I had to go through to help others in the VCC with it. It is very confusing and yes everyone gets told different things. I haven't finished doing this yet as obviously I haven't completed the process but here is part of it:

Quote

Once you get the CA03 and read it the process doesn't become any clearer unfortunately. The form states that the follow must be provided.

- Proof of previous registration (see Note 2)

- Ownership trail (original documents leading from the last registered owner to the current
New Zealand owner, eg bill of sale, auction invoices, any relevant document may be
considered) (see Note 3)

- Written VIN/chassis verification (accepted from approved inspecting organisations on
their letterhead only, with signature and ID number)

- Independently certified translation of any documents not written in English

- Photographs of the vehicle and identifiers.

Note 2: Confirmation of de-registration from the country/state of original vehicle licence authority.

Note 3: The applicant (owner/importer) must supply a statutory declaration covering the following
points:
• How the vehicle was obtained
• Condition of the vehicle at the time of purchase (eg, registered, unregistered, damaged).

The 'must' and added notes confuse things somewhat as is the fact that there are other things they want they do not ask for in this form that you only find out about later..

If you fill in this form to the best of your ability and send it to NZTA as instructed you will get back an email from asking for the following: I rang and confirmed with them that this is what they want:

- Vin/Chassis verification from Key delivery service partner (AA, VINZ or VTNZ)
- NZ Police vehicle of interest report (do an OAI request via the Police web site)
- Document(s) confirming past vehicle history and where it came from
- Document(s) to support the purchase of the vehicle
- Signed & Witnessed statutory declaration confirming vehicle ownership

I sent them all that on the 21st Oct and am waiting to hear back now.

My advice for anyone trying to do this is find a testing place or inspector who has already done this for someone. If they can organise it all for you and you provide them the docs needed I think it goes much smoother. Finding someone who knows is the tricky part!

Simon

12 hours ago, The Bronze said:

I found your MG build page years ago, it made me try convince my mate to give me the one she has in her shed> You also made the Bender brew machine, right? Add some of your back catalogue of awesome projects - they're perfect OS stuff, people will love it!

Yes, that's me. I've done various things over the years. Bender, Jet Beer Cooler, Tardis MAME console, Enigma machines in watches, home made computers, etc. A mix of mechanical and electronic things mainly. Most are on my old web page, www.asciimation.co.nz, linked under the now ancient Star Wars thingy. Or on my YouTube channel of the same name. 

I didn't get a chance to post it in my intro channel post but I now have my Riley on it's wheels.

Oddly enough a friend up in the far north is going through the same process but he's been given a VIN plate BEFORE actually completing the CA03 process. He had the car inspected by a repairer. Apparently they can also do the initial part. The inspector contacted NZTA directly it seems and said they needed a VIN so they issued one. My friend had to physically take the car to a VTNZ place and they attached it. He is now sending in his documentation.

When he did the Police OIA request he specified his local district in the form and he got back a simple emailed response very quickly (a day or so). I didn't specify in mine so it took somewhat longer (2 weeks)  but mine came in the form of an official looking PDF.

So it seems the process is somewhat, errr, fluid depending on where you are and who you are dealing with.

We haven't even got to the actual inspection/LVVTA parts yet!

Simon

Just a quick follow up on my saga. 

I took the car to VTNZ who looked at the chassis number and verified it on a form with their letterhead. And my OIA request to the Police came back saying they had no record of it in their system. I also did a new statutory declaration explaining how I bought the car and when and had that witnessed and signed. 

That was sent back to exemptions@nzta.govt.nz for them to look at again.

Hopefully this now matches what they want.

Simon

Period correct towel on the front seat - cool!

Simon

Yes, a lot to try and keep up with all the time I imagine. I wouldn't expect anyone to know it all off the top of their heads. It would be useful if the VCC made this particular one a bit more clear in their documentation as it was specifically put in place for them. There is an amusing little dig at them in that info sheet around their lack of voice when it comes to such things. It's a pretty massive concession made by NZTA/LVVTA for us though.

The most up to date VCC restoration manual I can find is from 2001 so it's out of date a bit and of course won't have this info in it. But the forms you have to fill in to get the VCC category verified should really mention it. It had puzzled me what those VCC classifications were for outside of the VCC and this info sheet explains that. I am not sure when they came in so they might have already been there then those were adopted as part of the sub classes. I searched the club magazines for 2008 and they don't mention it. 

I know of people starting to go through that process now armed with that sheet so will be interesting to see how they get on. One slightly tricky thing is the VCC want to see the car finished to classify it but the certifier wants to see it being built/apart so they can verify everything. No dodgy paint/filler hiding things! Luckily your average pre war car doesn't really have much to it so you can see most of it easily. My approach is to finish the car, make it functional but not make it pretty until it's all OKed. You wouldn't want to spend thousands on paint or leather upholstery until you know it's going to get through I guess.

Simon

Another piece of information for the pile. This is of immense importance to people like be building historically accurate replicas of pre 1960 cars. So my Riley Brooklands, Bugatti Replicas and the like.

It basically makes it easier for us to get through low volume certification.

If you build a pre war car and try to follow the rules for a scratch built as set out in the LVVTA Car Constructors manual you will find you can't. You have to do so many things what you end up with is basically a Hot Rod, not a pre war replica.

It seems this issue was recognised back in 1998 and then in 2008(!) LVVTA released Information sheet 01-2008: https://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_01-2008_Introduction_of_Sub-categories_for_Scratch-built_LVV.pdf

This basically introduces new sub categories with different rules for pre 1960 historic replicas. The cars need to be sighted (basically finished) by the VCC who verify the category it is in on what is called a DOMAS document.

This information sheet says they can vary the rules for certain types of historic scratch built vehicles apart from a few, non exempt safety rules. 

Quote

 

In past discussions, Land Transport New Zealand have specified that through Section 4 (Exclusions) of the LVV standards, LVVTA can soften the technical requirements as we deem appropriate for ‘authentic replica’ scratch-built vehicles. However, it has been agreed between LVVTA and Land Transport New Zealand that a number of critical safety items are ‘non-negotiable’. This means that in the case of all scratch-built vehicles, including ‘Historic Replicas’, the items in the following table must be complied with. From an engineering point of view, all of these items are quite achievable, even for the most authentically-built ‘Historic Replicas’. The table below shows those safety items that are non-negotiable: System Minimum requirements Glazing: must have approved laminated front windscreen (if fitted), and approved toughened or laminated side and rear window (if fitted). Lighting: must meet all LVV lighting performance requirements, but no requirement for approved standards compliance. Brakes: must meet LVV braking performance requirements. Seatbelts: must have minimum of a lap seatbelt for all seating positions. Steering Impact: must meet LVV steering system collapsibility requirements.

 

So it removes a lot of the barriers from a period correct cars. You can use period lights with out standards (providing they work well enough!), brakes can be as original (my Riley has a single cable operating all the brakes) and the steering requirement is met by the fact that the steering box is well behind the front axle and there is a longitudinal drag ling to the stub axle.

This info sheet isn't mentioned in the constructors manual (this is noted in the sheet itself) and is just one in a list of 107 of them on the LVVTA web site. So no one knows about it it seems. An older chaps (in his 70s or 80s) found it after going through all the documents on the site there. He confirmed with LVVTA that it is still valid. The VCC has never mentioned it as far as I can tell and certainly don't mention it at all on their DOMAS forms. I am not sure which certifiers will know about it as I imagine it doesn't happen very often.

I just wonder what other things are buried in the various information sheets that have come out over the years. This one is only useful to those building VCC historic replicas but there might be other useful things in the information sheets for people with other issues.

Simon

Another step done. Took the car to a VTNZ to get them to cite the chassis number. He gave me a form on their letterhead saying the Make, Model, Year, VIN/Chassis Number and who sighted it. I can now send that off to NZTA along with the other documents when I get them. It only took 5-10 minutes for him to do but as they were busy we had to wait over an hour (staff member down) so probably best to book first.

When I do get permission to re-VIN it that's where I will take it back to so it was good for them to at least have seen the car now.

Simon

Quick edit to add they didn't charge me anything for this bit.

Another quick follow up. I asked at Wellington Central station and no, the Police no longer give out vehicle of interest reports. The only thing they could suggest was either using the website they have or else the OIA request, as I have done.

Simon

Yes, I am expecting something along the lines of them saying they have no record of it. I have to go to the city on Monday so I might ask at the big station there about it.

Simon

I just got a response to the OIA request. They say they received it and were actioning it and I should get an answer on or before the 8th Nov.

Simon

Just an update on the next part of the process. I went to the Police Station to see about the 'NZ Police vehicle of interest report' NZTA want to accompany the CA03 form.

The lady looked at the email I had from NZTA and said that doesn't sound right, she'd have to go check the process. She tried to ring NZTA directly but gave up after quite a while waiting. She said the Police are not allowed to give out any information from their system like that now and any stations doing that were not supposed to. Maybe some still do so it's a matter of finding a 'good' one. Her suggestion was talk to one of the KDSPs (AA, VINZ, VTNZ).

So I toddled off to the AA testing station, they aren't a compliancing one so thought they might not be much help but as it was there went to see. They directed me to the AA office in the mall. They listened to the story and said yes, it sounds like a strange process and they couldn't really help unfortunately. They couldn't understand why the public facing Police stolen vehicle check wasn't enough nor why NZTA can't just check themselves.

But one lady did suggest that you can do an OIA request to the Police to find out what info they have. Interestingly I had heard of someone going through the VINing process doing that in the past and I had thought that seems a bit over the top.

But indeed you can do one and you can do it online: https://forms.police.govt.nz/oiarequest

So I am giving that a try. In the request I specified that I was trying to provide the documentation for the CA03 application, that NZTA were requesting the 'NZ Police vehicle of interest report' to show the Police have no interested in the vehicle and gave them the chassis number (there is only one number on an Austin 7) and asked for all the information they have on it. 

Of course they will probably just come back and say they don't have anything but that's all NZTA need to see from an official source.

I also spoke to the VTNZ centre I am going to use for the inspection and he can do the initial chassis number check once I get the car to them no problem. I asked when they do the certification process for someone what do they do about the Police report. He said they usually just ask the person with the vehicle to go to the Police to ask them for a letter saying they have no interest in it so he was surprised the Police told me they can't do that now. I might try again at the next Police Station I go past to see if they say the same thing.

He also said it usually takes a month once the paper work is all sent through for NZTA to come back to you. And that he is booked up doing inspections until November anyway.

Everyone I have spoken too seem to think it odd NZTA can't look up or talk to the Police directly to see if a vehicle is stolen themselves.

Slow progress but heading in the right direction.

Simon

Also regarding the statutory declaration part. That is described well here: https://www.govt.nz/browse/law-crime-and-justice/making-a-statutory-declaration/

There is a downloadable PDF you can print out here: https://www.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Law-crime-and-justice/Statutory-declaration.pdf

Someone has posted their version of that form that they used here before too.

Simon

Thanks! The problem is the process isn't documented at all on any official site that I have found. Searching for CA03 only brings up the page the document itself is on. And that doesn't mention needing the Police Report for example. You either have to know about that from experience (via here or other place people have discussed it) or they have to email you after you have sent in the application asking for it (as they did for me).

Even the process documented on the NZTA site for Entry Certification doesn't mention the process around the use of the CA03. It's only mentioned in the reference materials section here, item 56, Alternative Documents Form. Only the page with the document itself even mentions CA03.

The page of interest is here: https://vehicleinspection.nzta.govt.nz/virms/entry-certification/reference-materials

If you select print as PDF (top right) you can get it all in one document to read (it's quite interesting). The link for the whole document is here: https://vehicleinspection.nzta.govt.nz/virms/entry-certification/intro

This explains why different testing places have different levels of knowledge about it. Even the NZTA person I spoke to said that if a testing place hadn't had to do one before they probably wouldn't know about it.

It's good that we have it here now and I will probably send a letter in to the VCC for publishing in the club magazine so people there know too.

It keeps reminding me of this quote though:

“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Simon

2 hours ago, Goat said:

@VintageSpecial

The sighting of the vehicle identifiers is pretty much to just prove that the vehicle you have pictures of and are referring to in the supporting documentation is real. hah. 
Needs to be a compliance person. And you show them where the numbers are, and they just sign a bit of paper saying "Yep, i've seen a real vehicle and it has these chassis/engine numbers". They don't check if the numbers are correct for the vehicle etc. Just that there is a IRL vehicle with these identifiers. So the person in the office assessing your application knows you haven't just made some shit up and are seeking permissions to register a couch for example.

OK, I spoke to a very helpful chap at NZTA. He said he didn't deal with CA03s himself but he explained the process extremely well and what they ask for and why as well as what they are looking for you to supply. What they want is the list the replied to me with after I sent in the application. Knowing all of this before hand would make the process simpler. This is what they want and they ask all applicants for this:

• Vin/Chassis verification from Key delivery service partner (AA, VINZ, VTNZ)
• NZ Police vehicle of interest report
• Document(s) confirming past vehicle history and where it came from
• Document(s) to support the purchase of the vehicle (Names on handwritten receipt does not match with the applicant name. Therefore we cannot establish connection between the applicant and the seller)
• Signed & Witnessed statutory declaration confirming vehicle ownership

The first step you do need to have a testing place physically see the vehicle and verify it is real as Goat says. They give you a document confirming this.

The NZ Police report is just a document from the Police saying they have no interest in the car, i.e. it's not stolen.  He did say if you had this confirmed in an email from the Police that would be enough but I haven't worked out how you can do that. I will go to the Police station and get something physical off them.

The next two documents they discuss they want as much information as possible as others here have mentioned. Photos, history, previous rego, old plates, etc, etc.

If you don't have anything you can declare that as part of the statutory declaration of ownership. So in my case I can specifically say the car was bought on TradeMe 10 years ago, I have no way to get the original auction details, no way to get in touch with the previous owner and so on. You lay all this out in the declaration and have it witnessed/signed.

He agreed the process isn't well documented but did say it always works the same on their end.

The VCC documents help as supporting documentation to some degree I think but they are not the documents they need. This is not clear at all on the VCC side. I suspect they help once the compliance place is looking at it the actual vehicle saying what is it and can you prove that. 

So all the answers were here in the forum, thank you. It's just piecing them all together to fit what NZTA want. And I will be giving the VCC some feedback on their part (or not!) of the process. All the NZTA people I have spoken to have been very helpful and polite but it helps to know what you need to ask them.

I'll update when I actually get all the pieces together and see what happens next.

Simon

Definitely taking it onboard, thanks. It's good to hear other peoples experiences and their work arounds. Looks like a trip to town to visit the Police and find a JP is in order soon!

Also for us there is possibly an extra step 7.5 - Get the body low volume certed. That one is very hit and miss it seems. Some testing places will say you have to, others say you don't. So you have to find the 'right' one.

Simon

The idea behind the VCC documents is they are meant to be recognised even though it is some random old guy who does the 'inspection' to be honest! They, the VCC that is, even state that they are the historic vehicle authority in NZ and have a relationship with NZTA. NZTA have an example of the document on their site even. But then they (VCC) also just said they were having meetings with NZTA and the transport minister recently to show them all this as if it were a new thing so maybe everyone has forgotten. 

When I last spoke to NZTA the guy was very pleasant and trying to be helpful but did seem completely in the dark as to how things should happen. He said usually the approval documents the CA03 generate go to the testing place directly so they know they are allowed to start the process. I  pointed out there is only one place on the form to fill in an applicants details so he was confused as to whether a testing station or the individual was supposed to fill in the form as the applicant.

It's really not clear at all. If you don't know about the CA03 form there seems to be no easy way to find out about it on the NZTA website. The only mention of it is the page the form itself is on. I have never found anything that explains the actual process.

Simon

Registering a couch might be easier....

No pics unfortunately and no old plates or registration stickers. The guy it came from had built it as a special. I literally pulled the body he had made off by hand and started from scratch. At the time I started the advice was you'll be fine getting it through, no need to worry about it yet. That was 10 years ago. Things change! I can use the chassis number to date when the car was likely made but I have not been able to find any sort of export/import records.

Simon

I have the two forms the VCC provide, one is the date of manufacture and authenticity statement. A VCC person comes and verifies the car and what you have, you provide photos, id marks and so on then it goes to the VCC who send you a form stating all of this as well as what category the car is in VCC terms. That should be enough to satisfy the verification of chassis number. To be honest your average inspector would probably struggle to know where to look for identifiers on most pre war cars or what identifiers should be there. I'd probably have to take in the books to show them what to expect.

The other VCC form is the statutory declaration and yes, that one is witnessed and signed by a JP so that should be fine too. 

I'll ring them later and see what they say. 

One thing for people buying cars off TradeMe, take copies of everything. The TradeMe history only goes back 45 days it seems. I bought mine 10 years ago so there is no hope it's in TradeMe still. All I have is a partial screenshot. No emails unfortunately. I have email going back 25 years all archived from different programs but haven't found that particular time period in any of my old records. Was probably between mail programs or something.

I think you are right about the Police Report thing and going to a station. The 105 operator suggested trying that and the VCC form has fine print at the bottom saying 'Some Police stations still provide this'. No hints which though. And they don't list individual station phone numbers anymore, it all goes through 105. Hopefully I can get transferred to an actual Policeman at a desk to ask!

It is a bit annoying having to prove to then history of the car when they originally had it (well, the Post Office) and they threw it away. The motor vehicle records were computerised by NZ post in the late 80s. But they only entered currently live registrations. Then a current system was built in 1996 and the records transferred across. CarJam explain it here: https://www.carjam.co.nz/cms/2009/07/11/registration-information-for-older-vehicles/

I have been working with an archivist to find out exactly what happened to the undigitised documents. Are they still about somewhere? She's still looking into it for me. 

@AllTorque

It was that thread that lead me to oldschool in the first place! Very interesting. It shows the ever changing, inconsistent process.

Simon