VintageSpecial

On 29/06/2022 at 10:43, cletus said:

Also there isn't a group that represents 'modern' car owners. There was talk of a group being started but I'm not sure what's happening there 

There is a group for vintage car owners and it doesn't seem to help much. The VCC accepts any cars over 30 years old though, anything recent would be classed as a Post 1980 Vehicle. They are trying to get the 6 month WOF requirement removed for vehicles over a certain year which is good. The VCC definitely know about the issues around getting vintage cars back on the road but apparently NZTA told them they didn't have time to deal with them.

I suspect the various car enthusiast groups are going to need to start banding together more in future to have a voice. Which funnily enough is how LVVTA came about in the first place. Single mark car clubs are all losing members and not attracting new ones I think, especially for older vehicles. I would think the car clubs should be working with the likes of LVVTA more as they are really the group that was there to support 'non standard' cars, modern, classic or vintage. In my working through getting my pre-war cars on the road I found references in LVVTA documents to the VCC not being very involved early on and that's definitely hurting us now. Whether LVVTA are still the organisation to represent everyone I don't know but there isn't anyone else?

I know of one person who believes there is a world wide conspiracy to get 'old' cars off the road spearheaded by German company DEKRA. I've never quite understood the logic of the theory (like most conspiracy theories!) but it goes something along the lines that the big German car companies work with them to ensure only new cars can ever meet the safety standard that DEKRA are in charge of setting so that everyone needs to buy new cars because the 'old' ones are not safe enough.

I don't really see that is the case myself. DEKRA seem to support classic and vintage car events and so on and I can't see why they wouldn't want to be in business inspecting older cars. I mean if all that was sold were new cars what would they have to inspect?

DEKRA, by the way, owns VTNZ.

Simon

Just a little update to this thread. Work progresses on my Riley. I don't think I mentioned it here but the engine does run which was a major achievement given I started with a pile of bits and totally rebuilt it (new crank, new rods, high compression pistons, etc, etc) . No cooling system yet so I can't test drive it. About to start on the timber frame and body soon.

I spoke to some well known restorers about seatbelts in vintage cars and asked how they do it. The answer was they get them registered with approved belts then swap them later and no one ever notices.

My Austin 7 is in limbo. But I did hear of someone who managed to register a car exactly like mine (Austin 7 factory running gear and new period correct body) following the exact same process I tried and while I got rejected theirs got through fine, no LVVTA cert needed.

The Vintage Car Club does know of issues and are talking with NZTA to get them to try to sort out the mess and the fact that the process is broken and applied inconsistently. That was ongoing (they mention it again in the latest club magazine). Apparently Waka Kotahi said they were too busy to sort out the problem though. Probably even more so now Waka Kotahi are being whacked with the naughty stick again.

Simon

On 27/05/2022 at 07:19, Nominal said:

You could get a cert/wof set and a different "off-road' set and swap them around.

I suspect whatever I get will end up falling behind the seat back and not be seen most of the time anyway!

Yeah, VINZ/VTNZ seem very hit and miss. There are some good ones about they seem harder and harder to find. The only way seems to be recent word of mouth. Recent because when you ask you usually get told talk to this person who says talk to that person and by the time you get some someone who has actually done it who says they used so and so at such and such place you then find out that was 10 years ago and that person is now retired or dead!

That ute is nearly 30 years old (based on a 1995 date) and 30 is the minimum age for a vintage car club eligible vehicle. It might be worth talking to someone from the VCC down there: canterbury@vcc.org.nz Tell them it's a 1990 vehicle though!

Simon

Well, I heard back from some of the big makers of belts. Simpson, Racequip, RJS and others. They don't certify their latch and link style belts to FMVSS209 at all so they aren't road rated. They only have racing SFI certs. I don't think anyone cares in the US. They just use them anyway. There are some smaller makers but they don't bother replying to questions on eBay or via their own websites at all. I can get old belts re-webbed locally but they need to have the right certs on them first so that doesn't help in this case. So unfortunately it seems like the more modern aircraft style latches are the only option despite being totally period incorrect.

The tricky thing is finding something that doesn't scream out of period. You put 60s style belts in a vintage car and it just makes it look like a special. No cars of the era had belts so the only thing that works period wise is something aviation styled. I've emailed Summit to see if the belts do really have that US cert and they didn't know so said ask the manufacturer. I have emailed them (RJS Racing Equipment) and am waiting to hear back. Of course having belts fitted and being able to see/use them are different things if it really comes down to it. 

Simon

Does anyone have experience of lap belts and what's allowed to be used? I need to fit them to my Riley. That's no problem as there are mounting points easily available. But as it is a period car I want something that doesn't look too out of period. Anything will to some degree obviously but something like race style latch and link belts look far more appropriate than modern plastic ones.

It looks like as long as they meet one of a number of the standard mentioned in the manual it is fine? Can I use something like these: https://www.wescoperformance.com/3lapbelwansl.html

They do say they meet FMVSS 209 which is one of the standards in the manual: SFI 16.1 Safety Spec, Made in the USA as well as Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) #209 Approved

I haven't found anyone in NZ who sells them yet but people like Summit racing do and will ship to NZ no problem. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rjs-15001901#overview

I think those are the same. I guess they must say on the belt what specs they meet to be allowed.

Simon

Been to see the certifier. Went very well. He suggested a few things such as redoing the brake pedal to meet the standards but nothing that's hard to do. Belts in it should be fine as there is an easy mounting point available and some pointers about the fuel tank and it being in a safe position, i.e. inside the bounds of the steel chassis and not sitting in the timber/aluminium only tail! But all of those are easilably doable. So all good now to start on the framing/body. That's a big relief.

Simon

Thanks, I shall look him up. I have a friend who is a cabinet maker who has also made a frame like I need and he has been most helpful. The people who do it as a business generally offer to do it for me. As well as a lost art it's always been a somewhat secret art and often people doing it for a living understandably don't want to give up their secrets!

Simon

Am booked for my first meeting with my certifier to see my Riley for the first time on Thursday. We are approaching it as a Scratch-Built Historic Replica build. To be classed as that you need it verified by the VCC who give it a classification (C5 in this case) and issue a VIC card but they won't do that until the car is basically finished. Of course the certifier is wanting to see it being built. I have asked the VCC to clarify this is actually the process but they haven't replied yet.

The certifier is happy to proceed but warns that I have to be sure it will be possible to get the VCC classification or else it could be a lot of time and money wasted. It should be fine as it is historically accurate and period correct but having to build the whole car before knowing if you can get it through seems a weird way to do things. It seems all or nothing, no provisional approvals or process to follow.

For the LVVTA part it seems it is quite a different process for scratch built vs modified production then different again for a historic replica which is basically a scratch built copy of an existing car type but with period correct parts. 

Should be interesting whatever happens. I will finish building the car regardless. Anyone know anything about ash framed coachwork? My knowledge of timber is not much more than knowing you can't weld it (but I am learning)!

Simon

To be fair the individual people I talked to were all very pleasant and trying to be helpful. It's just the process that seems a little tricky to navigate. It's something I wish the VCC could be more proactive in helping with.

Simon

The VCC in their latest magazine have a story about someone trying to compliance a Model T via what they call 'an orange building' and giving up and in the end going to a 'seasoned, old guy' doing compliancing. The short article finishes up commenting it not what you know but who you know.

Pity it doesn't say who the who is! 

It was me who went down the CA03 route. That is the official way to do it. But I would advise finding someone who knows the system and has done it before to help you. Maybe you can find a good VTNZ place that can do it.

When I tried it myself it was a disaster. Micky Mouse AF describes it perfectly. You need something from the Police to say it's not stolen. Or rather they have no interest in it. You used to be able to go to a Police Station and ask them and they'd print something out to say that. They won't do that now. The only way I found to get around that was do an OIA request to ask them. Even the people at the Police stations I talked to thought that was ridiculous.

You also need proof of ownership, so a sales receipt is good. And you need a statutory declaration you do own the car. Any JP can give you that.

And you need the chassis number verified by an agent, i.e. VTNZ (there are others too but don't have the list handy). They will simply look at it and give you a letter saying they verified physically the chassis number.

It can also help (apparently it can help but no one can tell me how) to have what's called a DOMAS from the Vintage Car club which is them stating the car is really a 19XX whatever. They will come inspect it. Often the person inspecting it will know less about it than the person who built it! Only you can't get that until the car is complete so I am not sure how much help it is in any case.

In the end, and this is after months and months of back and forth they came back to me and said mine was a Scratch Built Historic Vehicle (it's an Austin 7 with a new body) so I need to go that route. As I have another vehicle, of far higher value, also needing to go LVVTA Scratch built I am not sure it's going to be worth doing the Austin 7 but will see what the certifier says (hopefully talking to him this week). The VCC says the average cost for fully certing a vintage scratch built is between $5-6k.

NZTA actually waived the $184 fee since it had all taken so long and was such a cock up.

Simon

I was looking at this a little lately as I am building my replica Riley. I had to make up the clutch pedal linkages myself as saloon car ones won't fit and original ones aren't available. Even most 'original' cars are modified as original gearboxes broke and were replaced with standard production car ones as factory race ones aren't exactly abundant and haven't been made since the 1930s. The differences are minor as in slightly different castings and shafts so easy to work around.

I looked up the rules around clutch pedals and linkages in the manual and couldn't see anything. Brake pedals though are definitely mentioned. I think brakes are considered safety critical but I guess clutches aren't!

In chats to a certifier he told me original pedals cannot be modified in any way (so no cutting, drilling, heating, bending, welding, etc, etc) but that if you made your own from mild steel that is OK as long as they meet the requirements in the manual.

It gets a little fuzzy around the differences around modified production, scratch built and scratch built historic replica though.

"I highly doubt anyone who was not a leading expert on reliant scimitars would ever know. "

That must be an issue for all certifiers with some of the less common things they have to look at. Especially when the certifier is dealing with an 'expert' who built the car who I am sure thinks they know better! I don't consider myself an expert on mine despite knowing the cars pretty well now through trying to replicate one. I just stick to keeping it as close to factory as possible with as many examples in photos, period manuals, parts books and so on to show they are.

Am getting close to having the certifier have a first look now. Am just about ready to do a first engine start on a complete rolling chassis. Just sorting out how you do ignition timing on a magneto ignition engine with no timing marks!

Simon

Am still talking to people about LVV certifiers who  might be able to help with a scratch built historic replica. Is there any way to find out who might have done those before and understands the process? I am making enquiries through the various clubs I am in too. 

I did find this section 7 in the LVVTA operating requirements manual here: https://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/operating_requirements_schedule/LVVTA_Operating_Requirements_Schedule.pdf

NOTE 1: As examples, a typical ‘Scratch-built Historic Replica’ LVV as described in 7.1(2) might be a constructed 1925 Bentley 3-litre replica, a constructed alloy-bodied AC Cobra replica, or a constructed Type-35 Bugatti replica. It may also be a Austin Seven sedan re-bodied with a period-correct open sports body.

So their might be hope for the 7 after all. I suspect they are a bit more typical than Type 35 Bugattis!

Simon

Point 3, good to know. I am talking to the VCC too of course being a member of it.

Point 4 is interesting. The funny thing is I guess then your 1930s car that needed WOF every 6 months then only needs a WOF ever 1 year as it is registered after 2000? Or does it get treated as a brand new car so the first 3 years are WOF free?

Point 5.

The Austin 7 is made up but in period style. Very much like an Ulster (the factor never called them that officially, they are EA sports) but more curvy. The body isn't a direct copy of anything. It does get mis identified as an Ulster from time to time!

The Riley is very much more a copy of the originals using as much original reference material as possible. The body plans are from ones drawn up as a body to go on an original when it was in the country (but was never built as far as I know) and that body is based on original bodies. The car will be timber framed with aluminium skin exactly as they made them in period. I am drawing up the frame plans from original photos and reference material and have one original door skin I can copy. You can get a lot of idea of shape from a door skin! I am currently making CAD models to try to get it as correct as possible. I am literally right now 3D printing a 1:12 model of the chassis.

Most of my reference material comes from an original car that used to be in NZ (now back in the UK) that had a long history here in NZ of being raced, crashed, rebuilt and so on. That's a good example of a car that no longer has it's original factory engine. That ended up in another car somewhere back in it's history. Plus I have a huge library of reference material from all sorts of other sources. Photographs of originals and replicas. Hence knowing no two originals are the same!

I am in the relevant clubs (here and UK) and and documenting all the parts I buy and who from. And the costs - very scary.

Making the frame and body though is a lot of work hence wanting to know there is a way to get it driveable at the end. I spent 10 years learning on the Austin, how to do the aluminium skin, shaping it, gas welding it, finishing it all in a period correct way and so on. If I can't get the Austin on the road that's OK, it was my learning car. But if I can't then use these skills to get the Riley on the road there isn't much point continuing. I could get it to rolling chassis stage and sell it off overseas and let someone else go through the headache of making it legal where they are.

Then take up knitting.

Simon

Oops, got two replies combined there.

As I was saying Chris very much appreciated and nice and clear. 

For point 3 do you think an organisation like the VCC can help here? Does it help if we have other examples for instance? We already have the VCC DOMAS form which is where the VCC inspect the car and say what it is and what class of car but I don't know if that form helps with the LVVTA process at all?

Point 4 helps clear that up, thank you. Does the vehicle then get a new identity if considered scratch built. So say it was a 1930 Bentley saloon and a new Le Mans style racing style body was coach built for it in 2021 so the car falls under scratch built would it then be a 1930 or a 2021 registered car? Does it get a new VIN? I don't think that happens much here to be honest. But it definitely does in the UK.

Point 5. Yes, am documenting everything. You need lots of reference material when trying to replicate something of course when you don't have an original right there to copy.

Thanks again for such concise answers.

Simon

Thanks Chris, that's all very helpful and much appreciated.

Just now, cletus said:

@VintageSpecial I assume you have seen this info sheet on the lvvta website 

 

https://lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_02-2018_Modified_Production_&_Scratch-built_Low_Volume_Vehicle_Definitions.pdf

Yes thanks, I had that one and NZTA sent me a copy too with the CA03 result which was good.

The other one important for my particular situation is #01-2008: https://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_01-2008_Introduction_of_Sub-categories_for_Scratch-built_LVV.pdf

That one mentions the exemptions for ‘authentic replica’ scratch-built vehicles which the Riley should come under.  

I don't think many cars go through that process. I know of one going through at the moment but not any others so far.

Simon

Regarding the scratch built/modified production thing what happen if I bought a running, registered Austin 7 now, swap the mechanicals over to be my nicely restored ones, rebuilt engine, close ratio gearbox and so on. As far as I am aware that's perfectly legal to do and doesn't need LVV cert. At least then I would have a nice, period correct, restored car to drive.

What if you then later take the body off and put on a special body? Obviously that would need LVV certification for the body mod but what would the car be considered then?

Not saying I am going to do that or course, all hypothetical! It's not really economically viable. I like Austin 7s but they aren't worth throwing piles and piles of money at!

Simon

32 minutes ago, Goat said:

@VintageSpecial, Cool they finally got back to you (still tumbleweed for me, sent them another email today). Not cool on the outcome. Sorry to hear.

Wack on an old black plate from a swapmeet and just drive it? No insurance, and could get rolled by police if you're unlucky, but its not like you'll be commuting in it. $3000 is alot of no wof/reg tickets... Just sayin

It's not the fines though, it's the demerit points that could become a problem!

Plus I am a good boy

Hi Chris, yes I figured you were on here too! Was most helpful talking to you and it did clear up some things.

Regarding the lack of identity yes, the issue is that it is missing from Landata. That is a little annoying since they (being whoever the departments were at the time) lost a load of data when the system was first computerised. I think it was the Post Office initially. They only entered in current registrations. Anything historical was lost I believe. When NZTA now look up data are the using the same data set that available to the public (via here: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/open-data-portal/) or do they have extra information they look up?

This is important to know for anyone starting to build a car as lack of history does make it much harder.

Can you explain a little more around building a scratch built car about what parts you can/can't use? If you can't use different parts from different sources how can you scratch build it unless you start with a single vehicle then pull it apart? In Austin 7 world at least building a 'special' from period correct parts from different cars is extremely common. It's common for other makes of vintage car too. It's also very common for original cars from that period to not have the parts it started life with. Reconditioned engines, different axles, gearboxes and so on. Over 90 odd years things get swapped around. If the parts are correct of the make and to period I don't see what the problem would be. I imagine most of the Austin 7s on the road now in NZ don't have their original parts still.

As for multiples of the same car I can see how that could be a problem but that usually seems to be with high value cars and people trying to pass them off as something they aren't (e.g. Bugattis and Bentleys). Is that really much of an issue in NZ? If the car is registered as a historic special, with a modern date on it that shouldn't really be possible. 

If the parts all have to come from one vehicle, with a known history won't that just encourage people to take perfectly good, registered cars and break them up to turn into specials. An issue they have in the UK to some degree.

Can you explain a bit more what the process is then for cars made from parts? It would help to understand the process is before even starting on a project like this.

As for the "authentic replica (not readily distinguishable from the original)" I know you were trying to explain that to me on the phone yesterday. Does that mean it has to be an exact replica of an actual existing car? How does it work for cars where no two originals were the same? My Riley is a good example. The Brooklands were factory built on order, probably made with whatever parts they had on hand at the time, and with bodies made by different companies. I doubt any two were the same when they were built let alone 90 years later after most have had long histories, often raced, where they were changed year to year or even race to race.

In the case of an Austin 7 special it is harder as the very nature of a special means it's not like any other car exactly. Specials can vary a lot of course, from a standard chassis with a new body literally bolted on to highly modified but still totally period correct. So that determination can vary widely. If you start with a registered Austin 7 on the road now, rip off the body and put on a new one is that modified production or scratch built?

So how do you (LVVTA/NTZA) determine how accurate something is? Obviously it will vary case to case but what sorts of proof or evidence do we need to provide? And how can you know before starting a project what sorts of things might trip you up until you have actually built it. Obviously we can talk to the certifiers and LVVTA but for something like a vintage car (or some other less common sort of thing) until something is built what is you you use to determine if it will ever be able to be registered if the certifiers have no experience of it?

My Austin 7 might be a lost cause. If I have to follow the rules in the Constructors Manual it's no longer a period Austin 7. And on such a tiny car you struggle to meet the rules anyway I think. You can add hydraulic brakes for example, was a common mod in the 50/60/70s on Austin 7s but then it's no longer a period correct vintage car. I have no problem with the manual by the way, that's very clear and useful. It's more around knowing what is 

The Riley as a replica should be easier but how can I determine now that I will be able to finish it and get it legal. Obviously talk to the certifier, but what is it they will want to see/know and what sorts of things will the LVVTA be wanting to know. Hopefully they can tell me.

I guess I mean can I justify it is a historic replica now as you mention above before I actually finish building it so I know nothing will trip me up later? Then I can determine if it is even worth continuing.

Thank you for trying to help me, and others, understand. As I mentioned it's not just me in this situation. We know of at least 20 vintage type cars being built at the moment with varying degrees of success navigating the process. I don't want to go into too many details for fear of upsetting others builds!

Simon

It has to be a category 1D certifier so not sure TMS can help but will ring them, thanks! 

Most people I have talked to have been helpful but no one can give you the whole process and some actually tell you the wrong thing. It was an entry certifier who sent me the CA03 in the first place to fill out and that was wrong it seems. Then NZTA don't make it clear what information they want and tell you to go talk to the Police to get a report it's not stolen. That was wrong. The Vintage Car club initially sent me the wrong papers saying I DIDN'T need LVV cert and that was wrong.

You hear of cars just like mine (other Austin 7 specials) getting through when they'd been handled by certain inspectors/certifiers then you hear of others being told by certifiers there is no way to do under the current rules. So someone is wrong there. It just gets very frustrating when you've spent 10 years building something and have tried to do it right the whole way through and get tripped up at the end by the process. Am not trying to do anything unsafe, nothing illegal. It's a bog standard 750CC less than 20HP vintage car, built correct to period and verified by the VCC as such so it shouldn't be that difficult you would think.

My advice for anyone doing an Austin 7 special at least is don't bother. There just isn't enough value in them to make it worthwhile. A bit sad really as there is a long history of Austin 7 specials in the history of motoring. Bruce McLaren started in one. So did Peter Brock. And Colin Chapman. The vintage car club bang on about losing members all the time and if people can't build vintage cars anymore that's only going to get worse. Although now all 80s cars are eligible as VCC vehicles so maybe they are hoping to bolster numbers by attracting aging boy racers in their R32 Skylines! There are a few old chaps who built vintage specials during lockdowns who are finding they can't get theirs on the road now sadly. We're trying to get an idea of how many people are affected now. 

Will talk to the certifiers today, see what they say and weight up if it's worth continuing. With NZTA saying it's a Scratch-Built Historical Replica and the VCC classifying it as a B5 (necessary to be a scratch built historic) so hopefully that means it falls under the exclusions listed in #01-2008. The bit that worries me is the 'as we deem appropriate" wording. 

As always will update when I get to the next step here.

I spoke to someone called Chris. He was helpful and confirmed some things. The main issue is not knowing that they'd class the car as a scratch built from the start because in the past, and not that distant, others have got cars though differently. There are now quite a few people in the VCC having difficulty.

I had a hunt about and found this page that shows the LVV process: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/warrants-and-certificates/modifying-your-vehicle/lvv-certification-process/#build

For a scratch built car it seems the LVV certification and Entry certification steps happen at the same time to be able to get a VIN? The first entry certifier who I spoke to is the one who sent me the CA03 form to fill out in the first place!

The two closest LVV certifiers are Andy Smith in Levin and Ken McAdam in Wellington it seems. Will try ringing them tomorrow.

Well, they declined my CA03 application. I got this today:

Quote

 

Good afternoon Simon

Apologies again for the detail in our response.

Your application was sent for review with our technical team.

Due to the replacement components, materials and engineering which has taken place during the restoration of your vehicle, it now falls outside of the standard or modified production vehicle and sits in line with the classification of scratch built historical replica.  

Please see the below link to the LVVTA info sheet for more information on this definition;

https://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_02-2018_Modified_Production_&_Scratch-built_Low_Volume_Vehicle_Definitions.pdf

Due to this, unfortunately I must decline your application for use of alternative documents.

Your vehicle must be referred to LVV for certification as a scratch-built historical replica.  

Please find the formal decline letter attached.

 

I was expecting to have to go though a LVV certifier at some point but apparently I need to go to them first now? I spoke to them and they said they can't do anything until it's in the system (which is what the exemption is for!) so how do you do that? You still have to work with an entry certifier. Apparently you can do both at the same time? Does the LVV certifier talk to an entry certifier for me?

So I don't know? Will having NZTA saying it is a Scratch Built Historic Replica help as that is the sub category where certain exemptions are allowed such as not needing dual circuit hydraulic brakes and so on.

The LVV chap I spoke to (who was nice and helpful) seemed to think it's not a historic replica as it's a scratch build body, not a copy of something original. The body is built to period though. It was common in the day for companies to provide bare chassis then the bodies coach built by someone else. Everything else on mine is standard Austin 7. I suppose I could just says it's an Austin 7 Ulster but I am so crap at aluminium body work so instead of square corners they came out round! 

With the Austin it's honestly getting to the point where it might not be worth it. They aren't high value cars. Is it worth now spending another 3k at least (and goodness knows how long) trying to get it on the road? Probably not. If they don't allow exemptions as it's not a replica of a production car adding all the things to meet the LVVTA standards in the manual is going to be nearly impossible. At least without totally changing the car so then it's no longer a vintage Austin 7. 

So what to do? Buy a bog standard one already registered and put my nicely rebuilt motor/gearbox/rear axle in it and throw away the body? Break it up and sell off the bits? Starting to feel it was 10 years of wasted time building it although I guess it was good practice for the Riley. The Riley at least has value. If I can't register that here it can be sold overseas and I won't lose money.

So talk to a LVV certifier next I guess. Not many around me (Kapiti) so hopefully one of them wants to do vintage cars?

Am honestly rethinking my choice of hobby...

Every month I get an email from NZTA an I get excited thinking my CA03 has finally come through but no, it's just an update on the Peka Peka to Otaki Road progress. I am looking forward to that opening as then the current roads around where I am will get quieter and be far nice for driving my vintage cars on. If I am allowed to of course.