Toyota Levin AE111 Discussion

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Discussion for

 

[Rhyscar]

What a massive project. Speaking from experience, there is always much more pain to come than what has already passed. Is your plan to stick with the gt4 gearbox and adapt to K series or look for a Honda 4wd box?

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Just now, Rhyscar said:

What a massive project. Speaking from experience, there is always much more pain to come than what has already passed. Is your plan to stick with the gt4 gearbox and adapt to K series or look for a Honda 4wd box?

I am hoping we can adapt the GT4 box, ive got 3 bellhousings so can always modify one but plan atm is adapter plate.

There is mixed info on if the GT4 transfer case will clear the K24 block and I may pickup some Rav4 ones as they are meant to be smaller, plus happy to do some clearancing on the block/transfer case

If it doesn't fit ill go for a CRV AWD box and do a custom transfer gear and a few billet goodies as I want to match the GT4 rear diff ratio (ive got two of them)

Rebuilt GT4 boxes seem to go for good coin still and more if they have a front LSD so I can always sell my current box on and then build a well spec'd Honda box. 

Only issue is I may need to shorten/modify Honda Axles to work with Toyota CV's or get a custom setup done

EP3 is 32mm 26 spline DC5 are 36mm 28spline

Can't remember what the GT4 Diameter is but its a 26 spline, so I may be able to mix and match

K20 swaps been done before so I have some info at least

https://www.k20a.org/threads/toyota-trueno-ae111-with-k20-swap.97615/

[xsspeed]

Not worth looking at 2ar? pretty sure ive read they can fit to E series 2wd boxes, i guess in either case its the transfer case that will be the risk of fouling with block?

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30 minutes ago, xsspeed said:

Not worth looking at 2ar? pretty sure ive read they can fit to E series 2wd boxes, i guess in either case its the transfer case that will be the risk of fouling with block?

I did consider 2AR as an option and I did want to keep it Toyota, I have seen Frankenstein Motorworks doing some good RND on them and get 230hp out of them with a cam swap 

They are also a newer motor I may re investigate at a later stage

But at this stage K24 is just more popular and has more support etc and given ive just brought a K24 :p 

Also given how challenging its been even getting a K24, finding a 2AR in good condition looks more challenging

Some of them also had block issues which im not keen to deal with at this stage

[xsspeed]

2ars aplenty here, he's working on some further cams for aftermarket ecu again, the last lot he got 270hp atw with cams and intake

[mjrstar]

Wow that is quite a journey, I'm pretty sure i would have taken a lazy /easier path and dropped in a complete evo 4-7 drivetrain but I admire the ambition of the frankenstein AWD swap.

I remember doing a rear floor swap on a mirage coupe with a mate of mine, for an awd conversion it was a pretty simple affair due to similarities of Floorplan with evo, and getting a very cheap donor shell that was pretty complete except for a bit of the firewall which had some numbers on it which we didn't need.

In a weekend we had it running and driving on the 1600na but the rear floorpan, diff, awd fuel tank and all the tunnel bracketry was completely installed minus axles and driveshaft when it made the journey from auckland to chch under its own power.

But you appear to have none of these luxuries.

 

I like the idea of the K swap, hopefully the height of the motor doesn't mean you run into dramas with either sump or bonnet clearance, and you can find enough area to land you bellhousing adapter mounting provisions.

Did you toy with the idea of a k24 plus Vw dsg to add more headache to your project? There are adapter kits and controllers for not crazy money.

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8 minutes ago, mjrstar said:

Wow that is quite a journey, I'm pretty sure i would have taken a lazy /easier path and dropped in a complete evo 4-7 drivetrain but I admire the ambition of the frankenstein AWD swap.

I remember doing a rear floor swap on a mirage coupe with a mate of mine, for an awd conversion it was a pretty simple affair due to similarities of Floorplan with evo, and getting a very cheap donor shell that was pretty complete except for a bit of the firewall which had some numbers on it which we didn't need.

In a weekend we had it running and driving on the 1600na but the rear floorpan, diff, awd fuel tank and all the tunnel bracketry was completely installed minus axles and driveshaft when it made the journey from auckland to chch under its own power.

But you appear to have none of these luxuries.

 

I like the idea of the K swap, hopefully the height of the motor doesn't mean you run into dramas with either sump or bonnet clearance, and you can find enough area to land you bellhousing adapter mounting provisions.

Did you toy with the idea of a k24 plus Vw dsg to add more headache to your project? There are adapter kits and controllers for not crazy money.

I did consider originally dropping the 3sgte I had in it as well (motor was also unknown) but decided I wanted to keep the purity of the 4A Motor and keep the engine bay looking more factory, that with the weight of a 3S

The AE115 I got as a parts car we could have actually used all the running gear out of and just added some extra mounting points for the diff cradle (still can I think) but I clearly didn't want to take the easy route :p 

Height of the K24 should be ok, I know of a couple K series swaps. 

Worse case existing bonnet will get some further mods and ill do a custom carbon fiber one longer term, or we will modify the sump which I am open to doing anyway if I put a k20 oil pump in it (I want too but again thinking about just getting it running)

Also post @Roman comments I have rethought going to an EWP and will stick with a factory mechanical waterpump (with a few mods) for now as it also means ill have things running sooner

Though ive now got 2 extra ORB -16AN to -20AN fittings along with two extra -20AN weld on fittings ha as most of this car hosing will be braided or hardline because im a sucker for punishment 

In saying that to get it running and moving I may just through some silicon hoses at it for now

I am not a fan of DSG option at this stage though I see the appeal, so right now will be keeping a clutch and trying to get some form of 5speed working

After some research if I go for a Honda CRV AWD box I can use the CRV axles and get them shortened/resplined to suit the Celica outer CV joints so thats not a terrible option 

I can still buy CVS, complete axle assemblies etc so thats a good thing. I may pop down to the wreckers and grab a couple to take some measurements (if they are thicker may be good blanks)

Was also thinking having it moving Front wheel drive isn't a silly idea either and I know an E series box can work if its FWD I do have a E51 that just needs 3rd gear sorting and ive got an E50F as spares etc so may be a short term option as well

1 hour ago, xsspeed said:

2ars aplenty here, he's working on some further cams for aftermarket ecu again, the last lot he got 270hp atw with cams and intake

I know they are around, but given I am out of country its not been super easy to source things when TM is a dumpster fire now and FB marketplace isn't very user friendly

Also trying really hard not to get scammed or rely on other people too much :p 

I also haven't had much luck with wreckers getting back to me

Whats a running 2AR go for currently? I'm not in country so can't just go to the wreckers and pull one

Late model one on TM for 6.5k  

Over here im looking at around 3K from a wrecker if they supply it

Though ive found two pull your own places that has 5 camrys between them (not the hybrid versions) so about 500-600 if I pulled them myself but nothing under 200,000km

Also from what I can find the 2AR needs more work to pull out some extra power and not alot of aftermarket support yet

A complete 189,000km K24A3 (including loom) with delivery cost me 1200NZD so bang for buck is ok so far and its already got more power then the 4age 20v had

[xsspeed]

A touch over 1k is what I've been quoted by a few wreckers, that's for a 2arfxe engine

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9 minutes ago, xsspeed said:

A touch over 1k is what I've been quoted by a few wreckers, that's for a 2arfxe engine

Hmm thats not terrible, and then you need a 2ARFE head right?

12.5:1 is probably a little high for what I am planning on doing once im all done (turbo) but if the normal 2ARFE is similar price thats not terrible

Will keep it in the back pocket, I am sure I can find something else to do with the K24 if needed but will see how it fits up to start

I have parts of a 20v 4age (2heads etc) and a complete 7AFE I also need to work out what im doing with now (resisting the urge to by another AE111 to throw my spares into :p) 

[xsspeed]

Probably wouldn't bother with 2arfxe for turbo, sorry I've been musing for na applications only

[mjrstar]

NA plus awd would be the work of the devil.

It has to be boosted if you go to the extent of an awd conversion.

[Roman]

Yep, gotta make it worthwhile for lighting up all 4 bags. haha

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26 minutes ago, mjrstar said:

NA plus awd would be the work of the devil.

It has to be boosted if you go to the extent of an awd conversion.

I am not that much of a glutton for punishment

Current thought is throw a Pulsar 6262 on the K24 and run enough boost to get around 300kw but aim is to get everything running and I can then add things to a running driving car

Was actually just thinking about ordering some tyres so we can do some mock ups and work out what needs widening and am now doubting my measurements

I've been thinking 265 wide tyres but going back to my original notes I think I had 235-245 wide (id like wider however)

Because of the below math

I used to have 18x7.5" +43 and 215 wide tyres with factory struts so would have more clearance with Coilovers potentially but I can't remember how close the wheel/tyre was to the strut body

 

My new rims would have 4mm less inner clearance as they are 9.5" and +22 offset, but my new brakes are slightly higher so I think that allowed for more clearance

 

I know of a car that runs 15x8" and +20 offset and based on the pics fits the guards

 

Which would stick 29mm out further then my old rims

 

My new rims would be another 17mm wider then that without tyres

 

So 46mm wider at the front which lines up when I was thinking front guards would need to be 50-55mm wider as I rounded up (rear guards I think was thinking roughly 60mm)

 

9.5" is what 241.3mm so a 235 should fit and a 245 may if I have strut clearance

 

But based on someone fitting 15x8 +20 I may only need 20mm more guard width to fit (might need some camber though)

 

I am pretty confident that the rim will clear the front coilovers but we haven't test fitted it as the ST185 Knuckles still need the new bearings installed and the RAV 4 drive flanges pressed in along with all the brake kit put on

 

And then it needs to be put back into the car

 

I do roughly recall the original rims being close to the spring perches

 

Think ill hold off until we get one side back on the car :s 

 

[SiRge]

So you're the sadist who's cars at Steve's shop. I do wonder how he keeps that place afloat with Fraser and Josh there storing equally long builds there (I mean, not as long as Steve's Escort....) but hey, you're in good hands at least. 

But anywho, I see someone put a k24 in a lotus with an e153, so I assume your application is plausible too.

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14 minutes ago, SiRge said:

So you're the sadist who's cars at Steve's shop. I do wonder how he keeps that place afloat with Fraser and Josh there storing equally long builds there (I mean, not as long as Steve's Escort....) but hey, you're in good hands at least. 

But anywho, I see someone put a k24 in a lotus with an e153, so I assume your application is plausible too.

Yes its me :p 

Thats a pic I haven't seem but I have seen all the MR2 (SW20) conversions so know the FWD E series at least is doable

[xsspeed]

11 hours ago, mjrstar said:

NA plus awd would be the work of the devil.

It has to be boosted if you go to the extent of an awd conversion.

Agree, to clarify my musings were for my own application /late night DMs with romandayf, not with awd in mind

[GARDRB]

I've had similar thoughts about a k24 Toyota and asked Eric Hux, the guy that makes the K24/E153 adapter about AWD and he was very certain it wouldn't work with the Toyota transfer case because of how big the Toyota transfer case is compared to the Honda. 

Then at the same time I've also seen the 2gr AWD AE111, so with a big enough grinder anything is possible. 

How close is the Celica diff ratio to a Honda one? I know the Honda guys are running a viscous coupler which would allow for some sort of difference, but I've also seen Honda guys go to huge efforts to get a decently match rear ratio. RaceFab has recently done an Evo rear subframe to take a Honda diff, but I've also read things about there being a Jag diff that works.

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26 minutes ago, GARDRB said:

I've had similar thoughts about a k24 Toyota and asked Eric Hux, the guy that makes the K24/E153 adapter about AWD and he was very certain it wouldn't work with the Toyota transfer case because of how big the Toyota transfer case is compared to the Honda. 

Then at the same time I've also seen the 2gr AWD AE111, so with a big enough grinder anything is possible. 

How close is the Celica diff ratio to a Honda one? I know the Honda guys are running a viscous coupler which would allow for some sort of difference, but I've also seen Honda guys go to huge efforts to get a decently match rear ratio. RaceFab has recently done an Evo rear subframe to take a Honda diff, but I've also read things about there being a Jag diff that works.

Not sure if you've seen how much grinding is required to make the 2GR fit with the Transfer case

 

I am not sure how much grinding into the block im comfortable with so will have to see how it fits to start with

Honda diff ratio isn't close enough, copied from the other thread Honda AWD info

"Transfer gear ratios are 0.434 for the Manual and 0.393 for the Auto, the transfer case is the same between the two (transfer gear on the diff is the same between auto and manual, difference is the gear it connects too in the transfer case I had to look up the part numbers to confirm this)

Factory CRV rear diff is 2.529 Ratio (USA) for reference the rear GT4 Celica (7.1" or 6.7" T series?) diff is 2.928"

Plan would be either a

• Transfer gear made at the correct ratio (0.3778) for the CRV box (transfer case gears are already being made commercially)
• Or get a Custom rear diff ring gear and Pinon made with a ratio of 2.549

Hmm seems some corvettes have a 2.59 rear diff ratio as well

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So also to help explain how some of my scope creep happens, I've just spent the last 2hrs thinking about crush washers

I have a few things that I have to use AN fittings for based on current parts acquired, as part of these fittings I have a few ORB fittings that currently have O-rings

• At least 5 in the fuel system

So ideally I want to go to Aluminum crush washers (assuming the orb fittings don't have a seat for the o-rings)

So I need some Orb -12AN, Orb -10AN, Orb -8AN for that at least

And then if I end up running a gearbox oil cooler I probably need some M14x1.5 ones but -6AN should work

Need to run Aluminum as the AN fittings are all Alloy

So may as well buy a kit of -3AN to -16AN (10ea) as that way when I convert the cooling system to AN Ive got crush washers for the -16AN to -20AN fittings I have and spares for when I do an oil filter relocation/cooler + Turbo etc

And ill probably get some spare o-rings as well encase using a crush washer isn't an option

So then its the Nitrile vs Viton o-ring options ha

Then its finding a good price for the above and getting it shipped to me for when I bring it over later :s 

I think ive landed on raceworks kits for the seals/washers at this stage

All my AN fittings are Aeroflow

Though I do have a selection of Aliexpress AN fittings on the way to do some quality checks on