Popular Post NickJ Posted August 5, 2022 Author Popular Post Share Posted August 5, 2022 Hmmm it just gets more interesting..... Had a good read of the VFD manual, Power Electronics SD50, from that I identified the most likely settings which were in need of a check up- Control input, remote operation, min/max speed, control input type etc etc. Well, before getting to the inputs it turns out the basic characteristics are all wrong, input voltage, motor power etc so quickly dragged them to range, then moving to the control side I found it was set to remote operation, local speed control, set speed 400Hz or ~8000rpm. A quick reassignment of inputs and she's all happiness, typing GCode into Linux activated the VFD and spun up to speed, even the tacho now reads a reasonable value when asked for 3000rpm, no doubt confirming parameters will get things inline. Its a pretty big win in the overall process, but mindful that there may be some more bad settings I shut down and tomorrow will dig through the entire VFD menu and confirm each and every setting, yuck. 13 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post NickJ Posted August 9, 2022 Author Popular Post Share Posted August 9, 2022 VFD - Settings confirmed as all wrong, but not terribly so, but with "better" numbers the external tach is now all wrong, while I didn't get my head around the external output settings that feed it, for now I'll let it be until I can get my hands on a hand held tach, unless someone has a fancypants way to work out the number of poles if its not on the nameplate? Currently set at 2 because thats what it was and it turns........ Managed to spin up all axes again and get each one to home on the limit switches, good learning here, setting home as zero throws errors cos it trips the switch, moving home position to a nominal offset cured that. Also found a few of the limit switches not quite in position, so fixed them too. All Green! If I was so keen, the controller would accept and run a program In reality this puts me servo tuning away from using the machine, in true procrastination form I dug into the pneumatics... Spilling the wires and tubes out from the head I set up a test manifold to find out which solenoids worked and which were NFG. Expected result, more bits dumped in the bin Thankfully I was left with 7 operational 5/2 solenoids, a few other shuttle valves and a mountain of various fittings &hose, these were set up on a manifold and re-installed to work the tool change on the main spindle. All of this^ is now this: Not being one to leave a chance to test, a quick switchboard was thrown together linking the above solenoids In what I can only amount to a miracle, I somehow managed to get the polarity of the air lines correct allowing removal and insertion of a tool holder first time, while it was only manual, it gives me hope that if I can sit down with the ladder logic side, I should get tool changing on the functional list (Of course its not this easy, there are many interlock switches to monitor making sure everything is correct ie tool correctly loaded before 10,000rpm etc) The tool change was also horrifically violent, must re-adjust the needle valves. So, limit switches, homing and tool change. Time to sculpt? No, theres still more distractions! Enter the auto-greaser.... I personally hate these things, experience tarred from older, mistreated farm machinery where blockages cause dry joints and days disappear in feeble attempts to unblock lines or work out which orifice plate goes to which port. But, when they work, life is pretty darn peachy. Using the valves assembled for the above air tests, I soon found the pump wasn't building pressure, a quick loosening of fittings and air purge had that raised to a healthy 200bar grease pressure (safety glasses on) Cracking the furthest distribution block I soon had grease pouring out then followed by a MDF/grease goo flowing from the linear rails and ball screws. While the flow is pretty uneven, i'll give it a few cycles a day in the hope everything will even out, worst case the lines can be swapped for nipples. Ok, so large phallic engravings now or what? Nope, in the adventure of chasing the grease lines I found the X axis drive cover was actually split and therefore working out the actual reduction ratio is possible. Cover off locates, well, more grease. Grabbing the nearest doggy bag the goo was disposed of and wiped up Fairly certain its just grease, the belt appears healthy but I might try locate a new one and replace it if the price is palatable. And yes, this whole post has been a tease, I never managed to run a program, having a go at tuning the servos I realised I have no idea how to run the internal oscilloscope, back to the school of YouTube then I promise to cut something worthy. 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty360 Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 12 minutes ago, NickJ said: VFD - Settings confirmed as all wrong, but not terribly so, but with "better" numbers the external tach is now all wrong, while I didn't get my head around the external output settings that feed it, for now I'll let it be until I can get my hands on a hand held tach, unless someone has a fancypants way to work out the number of poles if its not on the nameplate? Currently set at 2 because thats what it was and it turns........ Managed to spin up all axes again and get each one to home on the limit switches, good learning here, setting home as zero throws errors cos it trips the switch, moving home position to a nominal offset cured that. Also found a few of the limit switches not quite in position, so fixed them too. All Green! If I was so keen, the controller would accept and run a program In reality this puts me servo tuning away from using the machine, in true procrastination form I dug into the pneumatics... Spilling the wires and tubes out from the head I set up a test manifold to find out which solenoids worked and which were NFG. Expected result, more bits dumped in the bin Thankfully I was left with 7 operational 5/2 solenoids, a few other shuttle valves and a mountain of various fittings &hose, these were set up on a manifold and re-installed to work the tool change on the main spindle. All of this^ is now this: Not being one to leave a chance to test, a quick switchboard was thrown together linking the above solenoids In what I can only amount to a miracle, I somehow managed to get the polarity of the air lines correct allowing removal and insertion of a tool holder first time, while it was only manual, it gives me hope that if I can sit down with the ladder logic side, I should get tool changing on the functional list (Of course its not this easy, there are many interlock switches to monitor making sure everything is correct ie tool correctly loaded before 10,000rpm etc) The tool change was also horrifically violent, must re-adjust the needle valves. So, limit switches, homing and tool change. Time to sculpt? No, theres still more distractions! Enter the auto-greaser.... I personally hate these things, experience tarred from older, mistreated farm machinery where blockages cause dry joints and days disappear in feeble attempts to unblock lines or work out which orifice plate goes to which port. But, when they work, life is pretty darn peachy. Using the valves assembled for the above air tests, I soon found the pump wasn't building pressure, a quick loosening of fittings and air purge had that raised to a healthy 200bar grease pressure (safety glasses on) Cracking the furthest distribution block I soon had grease pouring out then followed by a MDF/grease goo flowing from the linear rails and ball screws. While the flow is pretty uneven, i'll give it a few cycles a day in the hope everything will even out, worst case the lines can be swapped for nipples. Ok, so large phallic engravings now or what? Nope, in the adventure of chasing the grease lines I found the X axis drive cover was actually split and therefore working out the actual reduction ratio is possible. Cover off locates, well, more grease. Grabbing the nearest doggy bag the goo was disposed of and wiped up Fairly certain its just grease, the belt appears healthy but I might try locate a new one and replace it if the price is palatable. And yes, this whole post has been a tease, I never managed to run a program, having a go at tuning the servos I realised I have no idea how to run the internal oscilloscope, back to the school of YouTube then I promise to cut something worthy. In my limited 3 phase motor knowledge. I'd say it must be 2 pole to get some rpm. 6pole 920rpm 4pole 1440rpm 2pole 3000rpm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickJ Posted August 9, 2022 Author Share Posted August 9, 2022 15 minutes ago, rusty360 said: In my limited 3 phase motor knowledge. I'd say it must be 2 pole to get some rpm. 6pole 920rpm 4pole 1440rpm 2pole 3000rpm This is the nameplate: That aligns with our best guess of 2 pole. 4 pole would put everything out by a factor of two right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg193 Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 I have a handheld soviet clockwork tach that is deadnuts accurate up to 10,000 rpm. Come over some time and grab it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickJ Posted August 9, 2022 Author Share Posted August 9, 2022 1 hour ago, ajg193 said: I have a handheld soviet clockwork tach that is deadnuts accurate up to 10,000 rpm. Come over some time and grab it Continuation of roadside sharns sounds like a good idea, i'll get in touch later this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty360 Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 On 09/08/2022 at 20:29, NickJ said: This is the nameplate: That aligns with our best guess of 2 pole. 4 pole would put everything out by a factor of two right? Humm so 2pole motor at 200Hz be 12000rpm. What's the max spindle speed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickJ Posted August 11, 2022 Author Share Posted August 11, 2022 23 hours ago, rusty360 said: Humm so 2pole motor at 200Hz be 12000rpm. What's the max spindle speed? According to the spec sheet for the machine 18,000 rpm, one explanation i’ve been given is 12,000rpm full load and 18,000rpm at reduced capacity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post NickJ Posted August 13, 2022 Author Popular Post Share Posted August 13, 2022 Oh my…… 19 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePog Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 Fucking win 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg193 Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 What's the backlash like? Is it pretty much ready to throw back into mass cabinet production? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickJ Posted August 13, 2022 Author Share Posted August 13, 2022 43 minutes ago, ajg193 said: What's the backlash like? Is it pretty much ready to throw back into mass cabinet production? Whats backlash? Spent the day digging further into the greasing issues, pretty sure its now getting everywhere, lots of black gunk spewing out onto the rails and its much, much quieter! still have quite a list to do before full operation, but yeah, could start smashing out cabinets if the will to CAD them existed. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post NickJ Posted August 14, 2022 Author Popular Post Share Posted August 14, 2022 As per previous post (and my partner's disgust) I have successfully carved the official OSCNC test pattern: This brought forward many answers, firstly the original machine coordinate system puts Z+ as moving down, this is a right pain so needed a swap on both Y and Z axis direction to get everything happy. Also found the air blast works really well at scattering chip around the workshop, once things progress further i'll re-install the vacuum hoods. And not so fun, while cleaning out the X axis pulley housing I found cable ties holding the drive cable plug, uh-oh Seems this has had quite a crash at some stage, busting both plugs, replacement cost hurts but have a pair on the way, really don't need that shorting out. for now its carefully back together with additional zipties until parts arrive. And it turned even worse after that, in an effort to clean up the housing better I pulled the ballscrew out, turns out it should not have been pulled out in one piece, the smaller diameter is meant to go out the other side, this took most of Saturday morning to rectify, but everything is clean and back together. Belt is pretty standard AT-10, pic here for reference if needed.... And to finish on good news, walked the dog past Anton's house this morning for a catch up and he lent me this wee toy Beautiful Soviet era tachometer, this confirmed my speed was out by a factor of 1.2, after some digging, I found LinuxCNC is limiting max speed to 10,000rpm, so far I have no idea why, but have scaled back the output voltage to 8.33V@10,000rpm which when asking for 2500rpm gave 2500 on the dial, awesome 14 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickJ Posted September 4, 2022 Author Share Posted September 4, 2022 Servo tuning time.... So, how does a machine get from A to B? well, in basic terms you say hey, go to this location. In greater detail, imagine you have a tennis ball in your hand and want to get it onto a shelf 10m up, in order to get in nicely, the ball will need to go slightly above and come back down, this is called overshoot, not really a problem until you want to machine an internal corner, that overshoot will eat into the corner and not leave a sharp edge. The ideal path is to just make it onto the shelf and stop. There is an additional problem, in order to perfectly land on the shelf and minimise the overshoot, the max acceleration of the ball will be finite, limiting how quick you can get there. If we add brakes to the ball, then we can throw it much harder, bringing the ball to a stop in just the right place, hit the brakes too hard and you'll need a harder throw, get it just right will minimise input energy which is an obvious goal for machine life etc. For a machine, all these values are fixed in code so in order to find them we can either do really complex maths (which also needs many precise inputs) or we can force an input and look at the raw path it took to get there, iterating on initial acceleration and braking force until the error of reaching the desired position is minimised. -Now before I get much further one can go way further down this path, the above is a simple explanation and my methods are not exact, but get the machine working to a level that the residual error is less than other errors, ie no need to roll in too much glitter. How does the machine know where it is you ask? On the back of the servo motors that drive each axis is a rotary encoder that sends a signal back to the computer informing distance and direction, in this case, 8192 pulses per revolution, or one pulse for ever 2.5 micron of travel. The inputs I will look at are the position error "joint.0.f-error" in halscope, a handy tool in linux cnc to look at raw inputs, this output provides us with a simple calculation of position expected minus position actual, if we adjust the input acceleration and braking forces, we can iterate around to get this to a minimum. Starting values are hard to guess, thankfully I had the factory settings which where actually on the money for a conservative start. Round one, request a 5mm movement: That squiggly line is telling us we're close, but can it get better? Adding some numbers, in real rough terms, P = the initial throw, D = the braking, I = A helping hand to hold you on the shelf FF0, FF1, FF2 are new to me but I was advised to leave I, D and FF0 alone, add small amounts of FF1 and even smaller amounts of FF2 which should get us there quick. Before FF1 and FF2 are added, the value of P was increased until the drive went into oscillation then backed off to stability. After some iteration where I double or half the input and react about that these are the numbers I settled on for the X axis, once the changes are in orders of magnitude I accept good is good, hence round numbers. The result: The output is now scaled 100x larger and the error is now visible in relation to each stepcount coming back from the encoders, if we view the square pulse as 2.5 micron, the overall error is in the order of 0.01mm, on a woodworking machine, no worries. This was then repeated on the Y and Z axis to even better results: Y axis: Z axis was a bit weird, but I also had issues with the pneumatic counterbalance as it adjusted to grease in the raceways for the first time in 20 years, if it shows up in machining I may look at these again, i'm betting its not going to..... All the above tuning took me less than an hour, by far the hardest part was finding the correct inputs for the scope, searching google for information is a nightmare, so many Barries harping on for 45min+ on youtube but not distilling the required 2min of info or reams of data sheets written by software engineers (fuck know what methods they communicate in). Once the inputs were confirmed (Cheers Andrew, again) I could dial in on the signal, getting gain/zoom correct, moving forward. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post NickJ Posted September 8, 2022 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 8, 2022 Making stuff! Last weekend I poked a pretty nasty scab The lower part of the frame lifted out in a soggy heap once the glass was out. The usual way to profile the required timber is to run it through a table saw only my table saw doesn't angle the blade and its in storage. But I have a CNC! Step 1) Take a picture Step 2) Draw around it using real measurements to calibrate Step 3) Assign toolpaths And munch So what could have been achieved in 30min actually took most of Sunday, what kicked hard was the clearance of the sub spindles, at full cut depth on the tool, there was barely 1mm clearance on the part, with the tool at full retract I had less than 2mm of travel left, this lead to some dubious manual code changes and many errors as the controller informed me the next move would hit the limit switches. While I have the new profile ready, the window is still boarded up. Also fired some ali through to make spaces for another project, it really showed up the play in the spindle retract mechanism, while its really nice having 3 different clearance heights, I will probably have to fix the spindle to gain more rigidity. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg193 Posted September 8, 2022 Share Posted September 8, 2022 "See Sandra, I'm not crazy! I saved us $7 with the mill today." 2 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickJ Posted September 8, 2022 Author Share Posted September 8, 2022 1 hour ago, ajg193 said: "See Sandra, I'm not crazy! I saved us $7 with the mill today." Good point, i'm still basking in the glory of getting onto a 5 year standing DIY job, I shall remind her of the costs savings at once! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickJ Posted September 11, 2022 Author Share Posted September 11, 2022 Mate called asking if he could borrow a jigsaw to knock up some decoys. Jigsaw? Pffft, bring the corflute over. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlownCorona Posted September 17, 2022 Share Posted September 17, 2022 will you be interested in running jobs though this once done? i have a miniature library to build for my wife (2 small walls floor to ceiling of shelves) that could be greatly more enjoyable if cnc cut. would also open up scope for more style too 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickJ Posted September 18, 2022 Author Share Posted September 18, 2022 14 hours ago, BlownCorona said: will you be interested in running jobs though this once done? i have a miniature library to build for my wife (2 small walls floor to ceiling of shelves) that could be greatly more enjoyable if cnc cut. would also open up scope for more style too Yeah definitely, while I don't want to spend my weekends shuffling jobs through, if its gunna take up half my shed it needs to be productive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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