Machining down axle WMS centrebore

[zep]

10 minutes ago, kpr said:

@zep   that chart i posted was trailgear stuff.  if got 2 short side rock assault, would  be at a guess 1300 ish wide.  which probably too short?

I want to go down to around 1350-1360 width.

[johnny.race]

3 hours ago, cletus said:

 .... It's obviously better if the wheel locates on a spigot in the middle , but if you aren't running spacers, and your wheels have tapered nuts, it's not actually a cert requirement,  the axle face could be flat ... 

Clint, you're talking about the wheels here aye? Not the rotor floating between the rim and axle flange face - held in place and located by the wheel studs. Yes?

[johnny.race]

10 minutes ago, zep said:

I want to go down to around 1350-1360 width.

What wheel stud PCD would you be looking at? What sorta brake setup are you hoping to run? I know where there are a couple of 1350's and a 1365 I think. The pinion is centered in one of the 1350's and I'm not sure where it is in the other two. In anycase - they'd/it'd be offset to a lesser extent than the OEM Hilux all are.

[johnny.race]

6 hours ago, mjrstar said:

.... man you can pour some cash into shortening an oem diff if you are outsourcing all the work. 

Yeah bro. Its that one place where all that money, effort and time you've spent building power, guts and performance - umm meet. Whether you're paying for it or not, Its not a place to skimp. You'll be found out.

[zep]

34 minutes ago, johnny.race said:

What wheel stud PCD would you be looking at? What sorta brake setup are you hoping to run? I know where there are a couple of 1350's and a 1365 I think. The pinion is centered in one of the 1350's and I'm not sure where it is in the other two. In anycase - they'd/it'd be offset to a lesser extent than the OEM Hilux all are.

I need to run 4x100. Currently I have AE101 discs and calipers on the axles/housing which I have been running for years (rotor behind WMS).

Not only am I wanting to shorten the axles/housing, but I'm also changing to coilover from coil/spring, and to 4 link from a 3 link ladder bar setup. Considering all this together is why I considered starting from scratch! I'd like to keep the brake setup though, it works well.

[johnny.race]

On 30/11/2021 at 22:25, zep said:

Wow! Thanks @johnny.race So it's not quite as easy as I had been told.

My current diff is one of the 1410mm wide ones. I'm essentially looking for axles that are the splines plus the tapered area longer, so I can cut it all off and respline at my required length. 

What does the axle brake hub register look like. Does it look like those in that first pic I posted or has it got two dork things sticking up like in the 3rd pic I posted. Is the housing the skinny welded type or the later round type? Your axles will be around 685mm long and if 6 stud - will have done a shit load of work. Just saying.

Do you think there is enough material in the mounting face centre to machine a 6 stud down to 68.3mm from the stock 101.6mm?

Those pics above feature a brake hub register (what you call a centerbore) of 68mm dia. 

As I mentioned above, my rotors are currently mounted behind the flange face. I need to pull them off and see how this was achieved as I didn't do it personally. Could be some machine trickery behind there.

Is there any reason not to just grab an entire 6 stud hiace housing and axles then, if they are more butty? Will my existing hilux diff head work with this?

Let me know if you do find one of those 6 stud Hiace ones that matches the width of a KUN. I've got a few of them here and they are not KUN width. But that's just what I've seen - you're mileage may vary.

 

 

[cletus]

55 minutes ago, johnny.race said:

Clint, you're talking about the wheels here aye? Not the rotor floating between the rim and axle flange face - held in place and located by the wheel studs. Yes?

Correct, only talking about wheels. 

If the disc was on the outside sandwiched between the wheel and axle then yes definitely would need something to locate it on  

[cletus]

Just another thing to think of @zep if you are narrowing the axle, and you have calipers mounted further in than normal, due to the disc being inside the axle flange, make sure you have room for full travel and articulation without the caliper fouling the chassis rails or body etc  

[zep]

30 minutes ago, johnny.race said:

What does the axle brake hub register look like. Does it look like those in that first pic I posted or has it got two dork things sticking up like in the 3rd pic I posted. Is the housing the skinny welded type or the later round type? Your axles will be around 685mm long and if 6 stud - will have done a shit load of work. Just saying.

Here's some pics, my brake hub register is different to both of the ones your posted. You can also see where they were welded and redrilled - originally they were 5 stud. The housing is the welded type.

42 minutes ago, johnny.race said:

Let me know if you do find one of those 6 stud Hiace ones that matches the width of a KUN. I've got a few of them here and they are not KUN width. But that's just what I've seen - you're mileage may vary.

It's difficult - I don't think the wreckers are going to just let me pull out a bunch of axles! Might just look for KUN ones.

 

 

17 minutes ago, cletus said:

Just another thing to think of @zep if you are narrowing the axle, and you have calipers mounted further in than normal, due to the disc being inside the axle flange, make sure you have room for full travel and articulation without the caliper fouling the chassis rails or body etc  

Yep @cletus, I've factored that in. Rear calipers all seem to have massive handbrake mechanisms, or have really small pads. I think I can make the AE101 work by shifting it and mounting the coilover above it so it the turret give it the necessary clearance. Any suggestions on low pro calipers that still have a decent pad size?

[johnny.race]

Those axles are from the 40's or 50's series of Luxers. I'm guessing LN56/57 given the 4 lugs in the register and the later style of bearing housing being used. They'd be around the 685mm mark in length OEM and were worth something before being blazed and having meat chunked out of the rear flange in order to get that small PCD to fit. Out of interest, are AE101 rear calipers the same as AE92's?  

[zep]

6 minutes ago, johnny.race said:

Those axles are from the 40's or 50's series of Luxers. I'm guessing LN56/57 given the 4 lugs in the register and the later style of bearing housing being used. They'd be around the 685mm mark in length OEM and were worth something before being blazed and having meat chunked out of the rear flange in order to get that small PCD to fit. Out of interest, are AE101 rear calipers the same as AE92's?  

I thought they were from an RN40, but I don't remember. The diff came from the deep south about 15 years ago, paid squat for it!

Do you know the length of the early KUN axles?

Not sure on the brakes. I've not seen AE92 ones. Here's what I have:

 

[johnny.race]

The 2nd from the left is a Surf 6 stud axle that's been drilled for 4 x 114.3PCD. The forging chamfer/bevel/gusset whatever has been taken down from OEM 6 stud size to OEM 5 stud size. That axle next to it, 3rd from the left, is an LN85 item OEM 5 stud. The 5 stud OEM PCD is 114.3mm. See - same size. The 2 outer axles are untouched 6 stud items. The 1st one is one of those 6 stud Hiace ones. The last one is a Surf item. Its clear the OEM Lux 6 stud axle is built more butty than its lesser studded sibling.

I might have done the odd 100mm PCD over the years. Not nice though, you end up leaving less material than what the factory deemed was ok on its smallest axle. Just my 2c worth. You can lessen the chunking action undertaken by running a small headed wheel stud and running everything close. The factory Lux 5 stud studs feature quite a large diameter head, are sorta stumpy/shortish and require more material removal to work.

This area is a specialist area bro where special cunts operate, lol!

[zep]

*groan*

I wonder then, either my axles have less material on the gusset, it's been machined down to fit the disc, or the disc has been machined out to fit - or a combo of all of this. Need to pull it apart and look.

This is starting to feel too hard! Maybe I should just shell out for the full floating kit.

[Testament]

On 02/12/2021 at 18:16, zep said:

*groan*

I wonder then, either my axles have less material on the gusset, it's been machined down to fit the disc, or the disc has been machined out to fit - or a combo of all of this. Need to pull it apart and look.

This is starting to feel too hard! Maybe I should just shell out for the full floating kit.

Why not just buy custom axles ?  they aren't that expensive when you consider all this faffing we are discussing - none of that is cheap either. the benefits of bolting into what you already have, and having the right stud pattern, offsets, hub/disc centring dimensions is very attractive.

and then they are new, not out of a 400,000+km hiluxace thats been burnouted over kerbs for 25 years

[zep]

1 hour ago, Testament said:

Why not just buy custom axles ?

Who makes them in NZ?

I spoke with Altra9 (Aus) and they don't do Hilux axles.

[Testament]

in nz I think there is a crowd in wellington, howard engineering? or something like that? maybe some others?

but probably cheaper/easier to order from strange/moser/currie/etc in the usa  as its their bread and butter for drag racing/hot rod/4x4 critters making custom stuff

you need to have all the details, spilne type and count, bearing size and part number, all those hub and pcd dimensions. but you would need most of that anyway even if you are modifiying a factory hilux axle.

[Beaver]

19 minutes ago, Testament said:

in nz I think there is a crowd in wellington, howard engineering? or something like that? maybe some others?

but probably cheaper/easier to order from strange/moser/currie/etc in the usa  as its their bread and butter for drag racing/hot rod/4x4 critters making custom stuff

you need to have all the details, spilne type and count, bearing size and part number, all those hub and pcd dimensions. but you would need most of that anyway even if you are modifiying a factory hilux axle.

Howat Engineering out in the Hutt.

https://howatengineering.co.nz/custom-axles/

 

 

[zep]

I emailed Howat a few weeks ago actually, but heard nothing.

There is a place up this was called Precision Engineering that I hear can do them. But I'll look at those ones which you suggested too @Testament

[johnny.race]

You don't email Howat - you ring him. I've built diffs before for customers using his axles. I've never ordered any myself - I've moreso been the guy that supplies the cores and builds the housing. The only time I direct someone his way (and this has happened a few times) is if a length of axle is required that can't be got by juggling pinion offset and no OEM axle has meat in the place its needed for a respline.

From what I've seen his work is good, the product meaty, accurate and would be strong. He uses a appropriately sized 4340 shaft that is splined in soft state prior to being hardened. He uses a LN85 (or similar) OEM axle core and cuts the shaft from off the flange. He bores the flange and its shrunk onto the new shaft and secured by welding it inside the bored out brake hub register (from the outside)

I've checked his work between centers (I'm lying - I grabbed the brake hub register in a chuck) and held the pointy end in a live center. and the bearing journal ran near true according to a DTI. I was actually surprised. I've seen some shockers come in the door straight out of supposedly good running differentials. 

Best to ring him.  

[zep]

Cheers man. Might give him a call today then.

11 hours ago, johnny.race said:

The only time I direct someone his way (and this has happened a few times) is if a length of axle is required that can't be got by juggling pinion offset and no OEM axle has meat in the place its needed for a respline

I guess the main thing here is that I am a bit concerned about having to remove too much material off the back to get the 4x100 working nicely. Not sure if that would end up any different to something that is custom made though.