Roman Posted November 28, 2021 Author Share Posted November 28, 2021 This is what I was up against with the IAT situation, just looking at some logs. IAT approaching 70 degrees while staging! So because I've mostly tuned this during colder conditions, I've been on the conservative side of things for high IAT for knock related reasons. I've never seen IAT anywhere near this, usually because car keeps moving while I'm doing anything fun. So I think I need to better shield the intake from engine bay heat, but also there's not necessarily much I can do about it if the car is just sitting there for minutes at a time. I'm only running about 25 deg max advance, but it's pulling out 7 deg in first gear because of heat. So I'll try get to a nightwars next time, assuming they start up again at some point. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tortron Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 Window washer rerouted to mist the intake Probably don't spray methanol on the outside of it tho 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muncie Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 C02 ring around outside of inlet to blast freeze the whole thing, start each run at -60c have seen a wrx with double walled intercooler pipes before for this exact reason. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 There isn't that much heat transfer from manifold to the air when full nang. not enough time/ length / surface area. kinda different story with intercooler. @Roman where is your iat senor ? Do you think the sensor heat soaking? looks like the iat start to drop a bit in the burnout when car isn't really moving. just some aiflow though intake. assuming you were running with your airbox on? maybe having the sensor right down close to air filter as possible, if its not there already, would help the situation / do a bigger burnout, maybe half track then back up. since basically pro import car im sure the track officials will be fine with it. then you'll be good to go. Edit: also on that note ^ when i did a big burnout in the kp, it always trapped faster, which i thought was weird. until started playing with stuff on dyno, which showed with hot oil vs cold oil can be a significant change in power 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Posted November 28, 2021 Author Share Posted November 28, 2021 Yeah I dont know what's going on with the sensor, I've used this same sensor previously and it's been insanely quick to react. Like almost instant with throttle. But the last few I've used have seemed sluggy. Maybe that have a glass coated thermistor and the other ones were exposed. Maybe I shouldnt buy aliexpress IAT sensors, who knows. hahaha. Yeah ideally I'd just be able to clamp the IAT reading to ambient air and ignore the heat soak from staging. As its 100% fake news. For next drags I might setup the IAT sensor as a general purpose one instead so it wont affect the tune. The IAT sensor is down near the pod filter on the back side of the intake tube. Towards the end of the day I turned the radiator fan on full time to keep some airflow going. On the launch and burnouts man there were some big smacking sounds coming from engine bay hahaha. A few times I thought an axle might have popped out. I think pod filter hits the bumper, but also sounds like the engine mounts hit limit of their travel or something. Currently standard rubber in the mounts with shore A 60 polyurethane filling the gaps. I think maybe I need to do some full poly mounts, and maybe go shore 80 for the rear one. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg193 Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 1 hour ago, kpr said: There isn't that much heat transfer from manifold to the air when full nang. not enough time/ length / surface area. kinda different story with intercooler. @Roman where is your iat senor ? Do you think the sensor heat soaking? looks like the iat start to drop a bit in the burnout when car isn't really moving. just some aiflow though intake. assuming you were running with your airbox on? maybe having the sensor right down close to air filter as possible, if its not there already, would help the situation / do a bigger burnout, maybe half track then back up. since basically pro import car im sure the track officials will be fine with it. then you'll be good to go. Edit: also on that note ^ when i did a big burnout in the kp, it always trapped faster, which i thought was weird. until started playing with stuff on dyno, which showed with hot oil vs cold oil can be a significant change in power On my shit box starlet with long steel runners there is pretty significant heat transfer at full nang. That alone is good motivation to change to plastic trumpets on a short itb setup. /Ling 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjrstar Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 Also Ling, my Honda yesterday over about 2min 45 seconds at Golden cross hillclimb. Rpm plus iat and speed. Also I have a pair of used 225 45 15 nankang ar1 for free if you want them. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 Dude get a engine dampner thing, they transfer all the vibrations but can just hook it up for the drags. They work amazing on FWD shit like this to stop the dreaded flappy engine. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4nd Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 Kinda impressed that you ticked up +10°C ECT in 15 seconds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted November 28, 2021 Share Posted November 28, 2021 1 hour ago, ajg193 said: On my shit box starlet with long steel runners there is pretty significant heat transfer at full nang. That alone is good motivation to change to plastic trumpets on a short itb setup. /Ling how did you measure the difference? do you have an iat sensor at both ends of the inlet runner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 2 hours ago, Roman said: Yeah I dont know what's going on with the sensor, I've used this same sensor previously and it's been insanely quick to react. Like almost instant with throttle. But the last few I've used have seemed sluggy. Maybe that have a glass coated thermistor and the other ones were exposed. Maybe I shouldnt buy aliexpress IAT sensors, who knows. hahaha. Yeah ideally I'd just be able to clamp the IAT reading to ambient air and ignore the heat soak from staging. As its 100% fake news. For next drags I might setup the IAT sensor as a general purpose one instead so it wont affect the tune. The IAT sensor is down near the pod filter on the back side of the intake tube. Towards the end of the day I turned the radiator fan on full time to keep some airflow going. On the launch and burnouts man there were some big smacking sounds coming from engine bay hahaha. A few times I thought an axle might have popped out. I think pod filter hits the bumper, but also sounds like the engine mounts hit limit of their travel or something. Currently standard rubber in the mounts with shore A 60 polyurethane filling the gaps. I think maybe I need to do some full poly mounts, and maybe go shore 80 for the rear one. Yeah probably fine to run no or less ign compensation. in the low gears with not much load far less likely to get knock anyway, even if its actually hot. I dont even run an iat sesnor on the kp, but its pretty far away from knock, so not really an issue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Posted November 29, 2021 Author Share Posted November 29, 2021 1 hour ago, h4nd said: Kinda impressed that you ticked up +10°C ECT in 15 seconds! It's like that! Not sure if it's something to do with alloy block, but compared to other motors I've had, it seems to gain and then lose engine temp really quickly. Or maybe the thermostat is just a bit sluggy. It's still got the normal 1NZFXE thermostat in there that the motor came with. I'm not sure if they make it "slow" on purpose perhaps. Compared to the regular engines. Or maybe it's because this electric waterpump is only rated to move water around to suit a 75hp engine haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg193 Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 1 hour ago, kpr said: how did you measure the difference? do you have an iat sensor at both ends of the inlet runner? That's the result of numerical simulations, takes in runner dimensions, cylinder volume, calibrated mass flow and some fluid properties. Model appears to be accurate to within 5-10% across a range of engine and iat based on datalogs. Maybe one day I will add extra sensor but there isn't a lot of room down by the head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Posted November 29, 2021 Author Share Posted November 29, 2021 On a non cross flow head though! Heat soak city Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpr Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 @ajg193 I have actually no idea how to read your graph. Do you have anything that shows temperature change along x length of pipe at a certain temperature? I've gone out of my way to isolate/ insulate the shit out of my intake. Be interesting to know how much a waste of my life it was 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg193 Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 2 hours ago, kpr said: @ajg193 I have actually no idea how to read your graph. Do you have anything that shows temperature change along x length of pipe at a certain temperature? I've gone out of my way to isolate/ insulate the shit out of my intake. Be interesting to know how much a waste of my life it was I'll generate some graph tonight, it all depends on the flow velocity, diameter and temperature of pipe X axis on that graph is pretty much mass flow rate per cylinder 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Posted November 29, 2021 Author Share Posted November 29, 2021 Arent you double dipping by multiplying the axis by both MAP value and VE? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg193 Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 That's how the ECU calculates mass flow rate. VE is just the correction factor that the ECU applies to MAP*RPM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Roman Posted December 6, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 6, 2021 The next most logical thing to do on this car, power wise, is leave it alone and just drive it the exhaust. However I'm a bit road blocked on that currently, for a variety of reasons. So I've been having a think about leaving it alone and just driving it what else I can do for free/low budget. So its time to just drive it give a head a tickle up and see if it makes any difference. The following is best guesses with no actual testing or proof. So take with a grain of salt. The "bad" news about porting a 1NZFE head seems to be that most of the tutorials that I've seen, work to address problems that dont exist with a 1NZFE haha. Because a modern factory casting/machining/port design are quite good to begin with. If they were shit, I probably wouldnt be seeing 8500rpm already. The intake port side is very steep and has an awesomely shaped short side radius. The valves are decent size for displacement, and the bowl area can be tidied up a bit but isnt the worst thing I've ever seen. There are some casting marks to tidy up but they're not incredibly dreadful. I am thinking the areas that will show tangible improvements on a 1NZ head are: -Deshrouding the intake valves, on the combustion chamber face. So removing the slight lip that exists from the machining process. This should hopefully give better flow when the valve just comes up off the seat. So I guess it's kinda like having a slightly longer duration cam for "free" as your useful airflow starts at an earlier amount of lift. However need to be careful to minimize the amount of material lost, or compression ratio starts to drop. So I dont think I will do the exhaust side, as there's less benefit when the flow direction is reversed. (For a turbo motor I'd do the whole lot as losing a smidge of CR isnt detrimental in the same way) I'm thinking that this will either be marginal to the point of being completely pointless, or possibly the most important change of all. Then in the intake port, smoothing out the transition from the machined bowl area into the cast area. And reducing the size of the injector boss protrusion. Then also narrow up the divider a bit, but maintain a rounded nose on it. I'm not sold on the idea of knife edging. I doubt there are going to be any massive gains here. Maybe nothing at all. But even the tiniest improvement cylinder filling at 8000+ rpm equals potentially a tangible difference. Either way it's something fun to learn about and it's "free" in that all it really costs is a whole lot of time. Haha. This is a junk head (RIP 2NZFE) which I've been practicing on so far, I managed to cut right through the injector boss seat from inside the port... But now I know how far I can go without issues. Will be fun to see if it makes any difference once I've done a proper head. But it's heaps of work. Definitely earning those 1.5 horsepower gains haha. 14 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deankdx Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 I'm just happy to read you are even thinking about improving it. is there any benefit to hooking a dual runner intake for more low end grunt, seeing rods might be on the limit with more revs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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