Romans 2005 Toyota Echo

[Roman]

4 hours ago, mopig said:

surprsed that you have the same power output, would've thought that his supercharger would net a bit more peak. 

This is actually a good one! Most supercharger setups with a piggyback ECU and no intercooler get around 115hp at the wheels. Which isnt an amazing number. 
But it just cant be overstated how insanely hot they run with no intercooler haha. 

In other news, I've previously polyurethane filled my engine mounts. But, I've left the standard rubber in place. 
But the urethane hasnt bonded particularly well to the rubber, and I suspect the rubber is still actually softer than the urethane.
So I think the mounts are slowly getting squishier, especially the rear one which takes the most punishment.

So I've decided to hack up my spare one, and recast the pin in a full urethane no rubber. 
So I cut out as much of the rubber as I could, put it in a little tin of petrol and set it alight. 

I never undertsood that story in the bible about Moses and the burning bush, but now I get it 


 

[Roman]

4 hours ago, cletus said:

So looking at the dyno chart, yours should be quicker as it has peak power for pretty much a full 1000rpm vs a much shorter peak on the s/c one? 

What rpm do you shift at and how much rpm does it drop? 

For my 13.8 run: 

Launched at 5500rpm, bogged to 4500ish when the wheel speed caught up to actual speed

shifted at 9045rpm - on gear shift drops to 6040rpm 

Then shifted at 9040rpm, gear shift drops to 6725rpm 

Then crossed the line at 8400rpm in 3rd 

So yeah for a daily driver it would be pretty hectic having 35hp more at 3500rpm. But at the drags I get to stay in the meaty part of the powerband the whole time.

EDIT: 

With my new 13" setup, the diameter of a 205/60/13 is smaller than 225/50/15 (576mm instead of 607mm) 
So on the 13" tyre I'll end up crossing the line at roughly 8800rpm instead of 8400rpm.
So that works out better than expected. 

[kpr]

toque curve just some math.  would look like this.   

[Roman]

At the moment I'm out of budget to get to any events for a while, or finish exhaust stuff.
I almost managed to get a full tank of gas driving economically without hooning around (which ruins the economy incredibly quickly) But had some mates come over on the weekend who wanted a hoon around. 
So who am I to say no.
But it looks like even with the throttles on, results in the ~5l per 100km would be achievable.

High compression is win-win!

So in the meantime seeing how gas is $3+ per litre. I figure I might try make a max economy effort and be able to run it on 91 octane.

So I'm going to switch over to the completely garbage Aqua intake manifold, (with E-throttle!) and I've got an e-throttle pedal from an SCP13 vitz that bolts in. 
So this means I can have cruise control (hooray) and it makes it considerably easier to try optimize fuel economy by doing some repeat tests over the same stretch of road and comparing results. 
It turns out the Aqua has a small MAF than the other ones I've got here, and it wasnt included with th eengine.
However one of the other standard sensors in the manifold that I thought was IAT is actually a MAP sensor. 
The factory motor would probably use some closed loop control methods by comparing MAF to MAP results to calculate how much EGR gas is present, and load the motor up as much as possible under steady state conditions.

I'm not going to add EGR on it though, but I reckon this setup will be capable of some pretty good results.

Surprisingly it looks like the quite tall airbox is actually going to fit in the engine bay okay.







In other exciting news, possibly even equally as exciting as fuel economy chat. 
My Dad has ordered a 4 axis CNC machine, and I'm 100% keen to learn about it alongside.
So in the longer term I'm going to try come up with a usable pattern for making an alloy quad throttle manifold, maybe onsell a few as well. 
However given the crazy price of even silvertop throttles these days, I'm wondering if it's more worthwhile looking for a commonish bike throttle setup?
As I see some have factory e-throttle which would be awesome. 
As ideally I would have the throttle spacings closer together, and a smaller diameter throttle would mean I've got less of a gross transition to the port shape. 
I dont know much about bikes though, any suggestions on throttles to look for?
 

[shrike]

Last E throttle/DBW I was looking at were the BMW option for ITB

https://www.efihardware.com/products/3236/dbw-actuator-motor-bmw

They come on M3 E46, and M5 BMW's from memory

Bike wise not sure these days but alot more models have come out with e throttle, pretty much anything 1000cc plus might be worth looking at

 

[keltik]

I believe those m5 ones grenade constantly which is why they are so easy to buy.

[shrike]

27 minutes ago, keltik said:

I believe those m5 ones grenade constantly which is why they are so easy to buy.

Good to know glad I didn't buy one then :p keen to see what DBW ITB pop up for cost effective pricing

[nobody]

16 hours ago, shrike said:

Good to know glad I didn't buy one then :p keen to see what DBW ITB pop up for cost effective pricing

Ive had 3 of those BMW dbw actuators fail (all second hand mind you) I changed to https://www.efihardware.com/products/3196/drive-by-wire-actuator-dbw (almost the same price as a new BMW actuator) and all problems went away and who doesnt like a bit of billet
Thats on my Mazda 323 with 4age Blacktop Quad

[kws]

Rebuild kits for the bmw m5 dbw throttles are available 

[Roman]

Got this all running with the E-throttle manifold. 

Pulling fuel out of most places on the table. 

Full throttle run, not actually too bad: 




Have definitely lost some top and mid-top end power but the bottom has filled in nicely (thats what she said) 

Also on some straight line cruising, some promising results! 



I've got a long drive up to Auckland and back tomorrow, so I'll fill the tank right up and see how it goes. 

It'll be worse than these numbers when you include cold starts and some start/stopping but looks like sub 5l/100 is looking achievable

 

[cletus]

I have pondered the use of a tiny carb for part throttle cruising (say up to 1/3 throttle) then a bigger 4barrel for going hard 4 what it is 

My boss has a 428 ford with triple 2 barrels (a 350 in the middle and 2 500s) and it is better on fuel than you would expect 

 

I wonder if you could do a similar thing? And would it be of any benefit?

a manifold that has 4 small linked pipes to a small throttle body ( like a bigger idle control valve?) for economy purposes . Then open the big bois for max doooort 

[anglia4]

I guess with E-throttle you could tie that into a button?

[Alfashark]

1 hour ago, cletus said:

I have pondered the use of a tiny carb for part throttle cruising (say up to 1/3 throttle) then a bigger 4barrel for going hard 4 what it is 

My boss has a 428 ford with triple 2 barrels (a 350 in the middle and 2 500s) and it is better on fuel than you would expect 

 

I wonder if you could do a similar thing? And would it be of any benefit?

a manifold that has 4 small linked pipes to a small throttle body ( like a bigger idle control valve?) for economy purposes . Then open the big bois for max doooort 

The old Audi 5-pots did similar, well as best as they could given they were using K-jet to fire the juice in...

Tiny butterfly covered a surprising amount of pedal travel, then pulled the big one open with more pedal.

[Roman]

4 hours ago, cletus said:

I wonder if you could do a similar thing? And would it be of any benefit?

a manifold that has 4 small linked pipes to a small throttle body ( like a bigger idle control valve?) for economy purposes . Then open the big bois for max doooort 

Ahh yeah, I see what you mean. I think the economy benefits from a single throttle plenum come from a few things.
Firstly a comparatively big plenum volume generates much more vacuum. So better fuel vaporization as it basically just boils instantly in vac.
But then also it's more likely that all of the cylinders are getting an equal amount of air at low throttle angles. (This could be improved with some fiddling on the ITBs)
Then if you have any overlap it will draw more exhaust gas into the intake for internal EGR effect. 
But since I've also had to set my cam timing 1 tooth back to avoid clanging pistons into valves. 
I think I've also got an atkinson-ish engine currently if I set the cam timing to zero degrees. As its essentially -12 over standard.
Having cruise control (havent wired it up yet) means I can do some ignition timing tests and some aero tests repeatably and see what helps or hinders. 
So some of this will help with the ITB setup when I put it back on, but some wont. 

I've driven to Tirau and back today, then over to Tauranga and back. The combination of these trips is so far around the 4.4l/100 mark. 
Will be happy if I can keep that up.

[Roman]

3 hours ago, Alfashark said:

The old Audi 5-pots did similar, well as best as they could given they were using K-jet to fire the juice in...

Tiny butterfly covered a surprising amount of pedal travel, then pulled the big one open with more pedal.

With e-throttle you can do even better than that, as you can scale your e-throttle table based on rpm and pedal position. 

So for example at 1500rpm you might flow as much air as the engine is ever going to want to inhale, by only 50% throttle. 

So you can make 100% push down on the pedal only opens the throttle 50%, meaning you get much better pedal control. 

But then when you get to the fun rpm zone you can scale it to 0-100% instead. 

Or you can make it non linear so the first 50% of pedal travel only operates the first 20% of throttle opening, so its not so jumpy when you first press the pedal. 

Also, I'm surprised at how awful this manifold isnt, it might actually be a good upgrade option for people with the regular 1NZ manifolds. The runner lengths are considerably shorter. Probably because the hybrid engine can use the electric motor to fill in the low rpm area better.

[kpr]

6 hours ago, cletus said:

I have pondered the use of a tiny carb for part throttle cruising (say up to 1/3 throttle) then a bigger 4barrel for going hard 4 what it is 

My boss has a 428 ford with triple 2 barrels (a 350 in the middle and 2 500s) and it is better on fuel than you would expect 

 

I wonder if you could do a similar thing? And would it be of any benefit?

a manifold that has 4 small linked pipes to a small throttle body ( like a bigger idle control valve?) for economy purposes . Then open the big bois for max doooort

 

TVIS !

Bluetop 4age conversion is the answer

 

 

 

[cletus]

2 hours ago, Roman said:

Or you can make it non linear so the first 50% of pedal travel only operates the first 20% of throttle opening, so its not so jumpy when you first press the pedal

So the opposite to those throttle controllers for diesels haha  

[Spencer]

20 hours ago, cletus said:

I have pondered the use of a tiny carb for part throttle cruising (say up to 1/3 throttle) then a bigger 4barrel for going hard 4 what it is 

My boss has a 428 ford with triple 2 barrels (a 350 in the middle and 2 500s) and it is better on fuel than you would expect 

 

I wonder if you could do a similar thing? And would it be of any benefit?

a manifold that has 4 small linked pipes to a small throttle body ( like a bigger idle control valve?) for economy purposes . Then open the big bois for max doooort 

You are just inventing the quadrajet carb used on like every GM for 30 years? even has adjustable vacuum feedback on the cruise circuit to drop the fuel needles lower into the jets for max economies.

Anyway put the throttles back on no dorts gets you banned.

[cletus]

Basically, yes, just more complicated, because of parts in stock   

 

I actually have a spare remanufactured q jet maybe I should try that 

[Roman]

Cletus I want you to know that this thread is a safe space for fuel economy chat without bullying from Spencer.

Got 4.02l per 100km on way to Auckland today. 

Might set an all new gas tank distance PB. Mean.

End of the month will have some $$ for exhaust bits.

In the meantime I will setup knock sensing properly.