Popular Post tortron Posted September 30, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted September 30, 2020 A little while ago I found an old watch on TradeMe that for some reason caught my eye. Pretty unusual as I have never searched for watches or anything before, I think it was under antiques and I was looking for old tools A grey case missing a strap lug, a yellowed crystal, not running, 2 blurry pics and an engraving on the back "To Fred From Mother 27-6-18" It went dead cheap for some reason (I've been looking for other ones incase I needed parts, and this one was basically a give away) I figured I could silver solder up a new strap lug, and jamb a more modern movement in there and have a neat little watch. 22 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post tortron Posted September 30, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 30, 2020 Once it arrives I was quite surprised to see how small it is. The dial is about 25mm across. Much smaller than I had expected from some I had seen online. I started to do some research and found the case is Swedish 0.935% silver. Trench watches typically don't have any makers marks on them. This one is marked Swiss made so it's a good one right? Well no, at this point almost all watches were Swiss. This one only has one jewel fitted as a bushing, all the rest of the pivots etc run straight on the brass movement body, so quite a cheap one. It's also a cylinder escapement (the bit that goes tick tock and releases the spring power in a usable way) which is also quite a cheap method. The crystal/glass is actually an "unbreakable crystal" which is celluloid. Unfortunately these yellow with age and release a corrosive gas, so I'm going to take it out and replace it. They are also highly flammable, which is fine because the numbers and hands are coated in radium. Before ww1 men didn't wear watches, but quickly found that taking a pocket watch out, opening it, and checking the time was prime time to get shot in. These early wrist watches were typically repurposed nurses pendant watches and were sold as wristlets 13 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post tortron Posted September 30, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 30, 2020 Luckily theres lots of really good watch barries on youtube, so i have probably watched 20 - 30 hours of guys pulling watches apart and getting them going again. Turns out mechanical watches are pretty basic (compared to say a gearbox) but being tiny makes them a bit harder, if you have decent mechanical aptitude and can remember where screws go its not too bad. A pocket watch being 10 times bigger would be good to practice on. Almost all of them have a similar set up with a main spring, a series of wheels, and an escapement. This one is very small, so not great to start on. But there are actual decent period correct movements available on ebay so if i ruined it id just get one of them. Getting it under some magnification my first thoughts were the hairspring (its tiny i cant even see it tbh, its smaller than a human hair) it had a wierd tail sticking out, the adjustment was moved right off the scale and it wouldnt spring back and forth. very gently removing it (the balance assembly (balance cock, wheel and spring)) and putting it under some good magnification i found it was actually in once piece which is great, because it would be very hard to locate a replacement and having one made is a bit of a lost art/too hard basket (look up the price just to clean and oil a mechanical watch, which must be done ever 5 or so years, to get an idea what it would cost to have one made up specially). It must have had some crap stuck to it because now the adjustment moved more freely along the spring and i could get the watch to tick and tock, but only once. This was very promising. Chances are it just needs a jolly good clean and some fresh oil. Lighter fluid is apparently great for cleaning old watches, so i got some fuelite and stripped it halfway down. Here's half the crap that cleaned out of it, I already replaced the fluid once because it was grot. this blue thing is 3cm across. In it is the winding mech and click this is part way through disassembly. Some of the pivots are human hair thickness so have to so gentle taking the bridges off and removing them. Oh also if any little spring flicks out or you drop something it's gone forever, also it's covered in highly flammable and radioactive dust, plus there was that whole pandemic in 1918. No worries 18 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post tortron Posted September 30, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 30, 2020 Not all my tiny watch tools have arrived, but I got it down enough that I was happy I could clean out what I wanted to for now, and could re lube any bits. Running it dry would ruin all the contact points (not instantly, but not ideal for obvious reasons, running too much oil also ruins them) I plan on giving it 3 stages of cleaning, so this is stage 1, remove the worst of it. I put it all back together. Everything spins nicely at each stage, so that's good. Now she runs... Sort of. I've had it ticking for 15 mins, but no idea on accuracy. But it still needs the balance spring adjusted way past the range to keep itself going. Just fiddling with it I found it runs way better with the main spring fully wound up and some pressure still on it. So possibly that is sticky with old grease, or just needs replacing, they can wear out. Fortunately these are a much more generic part, so I can replace if needed Next up is fixing the case and choosing a strap. I'm find of the ww2 pilots leather straps that keep the metal off your skin incase cold at altitude or hot cos on fire. I ordered a surplus Soviet one from the Ukraine. But I now think it may be too big for the watch, will wait till it arrives and see what it looks like. 9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post tortron Posted September 30, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 30, 2020 But who is Fred? I asked myself that before the watch even arrived, and started looking I have to make some assumptions That the watch was that of a NZ soldiers, it could have come from any english speaking country and the owner, or the watch itself came to nz much later. That Fred was given the watch before he left nz, He was already enlisted (i.e the date on the watch isnt the day he enlisted in the army) Then i checked the troop ships This gave me 107 Tahiti 10 Jul 18 40th Reinforcements 108 Ulimaroa 27 Jul 18 41st Reinforcements 109 Tofua 02 Aug 18 42nd Reinforcements 110 Ruahine 17 Aug 18 43rd Reinforcements, 31st Maori Contingent 111 Matatua 03 Oct 18 43rd Reinforcements, 32nd Maori Contingent NN Manuka var Mainly troops to Sydney for embarkation on Australian Transports. Dec 16, had 45 Motor Boat Reserve personnel embarked, transhipped to Australian troopship A64 – Demosthenes I also made the assumption that he was give the watch reasonably close to the date he shipped out, probably about a month Checking on the auckland museum cenotaph i am able to search via ww1 104848 men and disembarking after the 27 06 1918 but within about a month (im gona say Tofua) 3503 men Now the problem with Fred is that it can be Fredrick, Alfred, Wilfred etc. But im going to assume its Fred 141 men (i searched for freds with a birthday for the 27.6. There was one but he was K.I.A and i dont think it could have been given to him beforehand) But im going to assume its Fred 10 men Of those 10 men there is a Fred Collins of Stratford My great great Great grandfather came over from Ireland and settled in Stratford Freds occupation is listed as blacksmith Great great great and great great grandad were blacksmiths A little asking around from the aunties and yup, Fred was my great great uncle. He signed up earlier in the war but was turned down due to "lung issues'. But they ended up accepting him a few years later in 1918 just in time to get on troop ships riddled with influenza. After training in NZ he got sent to Sling camp in the UK, and the war ended before he finished there. As millions of men were coming home there was a lack of ships, so they stayed there for a while and went a bit mad. To keep the men busy, they carved out a giant kiwi in the chalk hills This didnt keep the men busy for long and soon someone broke into the liquor supply and there was a "riot" Fred was docked 2 days pay for his involvement in that. Fred came home to stratford and got married But that's about all I know. I'm Gona find out why he was called hobo too, that seems up my alley 39 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post tortron Posted October 1, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted October 1, 2020 I stripped off the barrel bridge and removed the mainspring barrel and cleaned out the keyless works properly This is the barrel, spring and Arbor. Plain coiled springs haven't been used in watches for a very long time They generally look like this new So going from it being a blued steel spring and the watch being totally wound up when I got it, and probably having been that way for years I'm going to say the spring has set (there's arguments in watch Barry world wether a spring can set or not, this one only opens up twice the size of the barrel and has low power so at the least it's pretty tired) Typical springs now days are alloy and are considered to be unbreakable. With this in mind I consulted a pocket watch book from the mid 1800s (this watch being a miniature pocket watch right down to how the case opens and the glass pops off) The recommendation there was you can hold the doing extended for a couple of seconds 3 times and it should get some life back in it Having to do that to measure its length anyway I did, then cleaned and oiled it and put it back together (Hand winding a spring back in isnt in vogue right now, you need a $149 tool. But it was actually dead easy, and I think you would be pretty ham fisted to bend one) I gave it a full wind and left it on my desk and it's still running 12 hours later. So that's excellent news. Next up is to try get it to keep time. These cylinder escapements were invented in the 1600s but after a couple hundred years were only found on cheaper watches typically. They have some complications around manufacturing the escapement wheel and getting clearance between it and the cylinder. Basically, sitting dial up or down is ok, but on its side the cylinder will move too close to the wheel teeth and cause friction, or too far away and not engage in the right spot. Apparently you can make a new cylinder from a hypodermic needle if needed. That was a bit of an aside, but what that means is while you are wearing the watch it will speed up or slow down depending on it's angle. Along with other factors, it could only be say 30 seconds out at the end of 24hrs, but have been all over the place during that time. With the balance wheel being limited in travel by the notch in the pivot, that means the wheel has limited swing amplitude so is difficult to get a reading on on a watch timegrapher machine (which is fine cos I don't have one). It actually has a small brass tooth on it to stop it spinning too far, past about 200degrees. So it's max amplitude would be considered very low by lever escapement watch standards. But I drive in Morrie time, so I get there when I get there 21 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePog Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 This is cool, especially the sleuthing you have done. This is my pocket watch that I have had for 20 years or so. I got a toolmaker to make a new winding axle(?) as the old one was slogged out. Its missing a jewel but still seems to work pretty well. I might have to have a go at dating it now that there is internet. It says 'A. Mardirossian, Constantinople' on the face. should try to get some better pics probably. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tortron Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 ahhh, those are fake jewels i believe, the pivots are running in the brass. Go from the markings on the movement (tho some are under the dial) some places just ordered in movements and fitted them to their own case and dial Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muncie Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 I have a Tikka spy camera from the early 1900s it appears to be functional inhereted it from a stash my pop had...... he liked cameras and guns and would frequently fix things by shooting them. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tortron Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 My grandad was a watch maker. Dont know what his mark was tho to see if the etchings in the case are from one of his repairs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePog Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 1 hour ago, tortron said: ahhh, those are fake jewels i believe, the pivots are running in the brass. Go from the markings on the movement (tho some are under the dial) some places just ordered in movements and fitted them to their own case and dial Yea I was surprised the lack of it made no perceivable difference to it working, that would explain it. It is entirely possible it has been hacked together from odd bits, there is some evidence that it has been filed around the hinge to get it to fit. Still, I like it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tortron Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 6 minutes ago, ThePog said: Yea I was surprised the lack of it made no perceivable difference to it working, that would explain it. It is entirely possible it has been hacked together from odd bits, there is some evidence that it has been filed around the hinge to get it to fit. Still, I like it. Yea i saw one on a watch forum the other day. Might even be collectable as an oddity of old watches made for tourists in the early 1900s but thats nobody's business but the turks 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePog Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/17268018_a-mardirossian-constantinople-800-pocket-watch Its identical to this one so maybe it is legit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tortron Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 Yeah they werent one offs, they were made to go to market. it will be a legitimate over 100 years old watch interestingly the swiss did the same for the american market. They made 'fake' american watches but with low end parts and american sounding names Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crash Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/marketplace/jewellery-watches/watches/mens-watches/vintage/listing/2800475284?bof=la8PMMt0 stumbled across this today, have a look at the last pic, some kinda DIY software for testing accuracy using cellphone mic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tortron Posted October 4, 2020 Author Share Posted October 4, 2020 Yup that's basically it. Available on the app store. Not very good for the type of movement in my watch due to it having limited rotation of the balance wheel. Ones with lever escapements do close to 360 each way. Mines more like 120 total. I did however find some timing marks on the body and wheel the other day and the watch appears to be in good beat. Now I'm just working on getting it to run at the right speed. Itl run fast no worries (like 1 second a minute too fast) but slower it seems to stop randomly. I have one more pivot that's the most delicate to get to and then I'm pretty much out of ideas (i.e the watch is probably worn and needs some rebushing and pivots) but I might still try a new mainspring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Gruntfuttock Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Great read. Another topic I'm too scared to venture into lest my latent Barryism kicks in and it takes over my life... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg193 Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 8 hours ago, tortron said: Now I'm just working on getting it to run at the right speed. Itl run fast no worries (like 1 second a minute too fast) but slower it seems to stop randomly. Have you tried removing the 3/4 race cam and putting something a little more mild in? / nothing wrong with a watch that has a lumpy idle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyfive Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 Would you consider a 2ZZ / Casio repower? Also, cool thread, real skill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tortron Posted October 5, 2020 Author Share Posted October 5, 2020 Yes will repower if i cant get it to work well enough. dont think theres any suitable quarts movements with the subdial second hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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