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Kp61 Worked 4k stage 7 racing cam - Help needed


lonely.Kp

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hey guys, just installed a new worked 4k engine, with stage 7 rally cam and electronic ignition from a minisprint, and doesnt start. cranks but doesnt start, so I'm thinking its timing. the thing with the timing is I have no idea what the timing will be like with the stage 7 cam compared to the factory if around 8~10 deg if I remember correctly.. any ideas on how to get my kp going?

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Stage 7 - gosh!

getting it going i would start with the basic factory settings (8-10deg seems about right) and adjust (via dyno?) from there - high power engines are generally set up based on the maximum all in timing (just back from pinking) with idle timing adjusted, if required, to suit 

However you want it to just run first

if its cranking not firing you might have the timing 180 deg out - but start with the basics

- got spark Y/N?

- got fuel Y/N?

- Got air Y/N?

if yes to all the above, then check its at 10^deg (static) and once running, tweak from there 

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53 minutes ago, azzurro said:

Stage 7 - gosh!

getting it going i would start with the basic factory settings (8-10deg seems about right) and adjust (via dyno?) from there - high power engines are generally set up based on the maximum all in timing (just back from pinking) with idle timing adjusted, if required, to suit 

However you want it to just run first

if its cranking not firing you might have the timing 180 deg out - but start with the basics

- got spark Y/N?

- got fuel Y/N?

- Got air Y/N?

if yes to all the above, then check its at 10^deg (static) and once running, tweak from there 

thanks will start from there, I've got fuel, and air (hopefully my side drafts are working) and will check for spark, but the motor was pulled out while running and I haven't played with the dizzy yet so hmmm we'll see, hopefully everything will be all good!

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As above, you might find that the distributor is 180 degrees out of phase, this happens more often than you'd think with people putting them back into an engine. Make sure the engine is on the #1 compression stroke when you insert the distributor. You'll be able to pull the valve cover off in no time at all (just the two nuts on top), check that both valves are closed (up).

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yea obvious ones here, check for spark, likely something to do with the fancy electronic ignition playing up. if its of a mini sprint what sort of ignition is it? most 4k minisprint engines i have seen run a trigger wheel and hall effect sensor with fancy programmable ignition.

I tried an electronic unit in the dissy on my 4k rally car, after a failure i went back to points with an MSD to drop the current through the points, works fine. i time mine all in at about 3000rpm so wouldn't know what base / idle timing to use, as mine is high as fuck.

stage 7 cam, shit is that out of 10 stages, that would pretty much make it a 3/4 race cam eh!

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1 hour ago, BLIZZO said:

yea obvious ones here, check for spark, likely something to do with the fancy electronic ignition playing up. if its of a mini sprint what sort of ignition is it? most 4k minisprint engines i have seen run a trigger wheel and hall effect sensor with fancy programmable ignition.

I tried an electronic unit in the dissy on my 4k rally car, after a failure i went back to points with an MSD to drop the current through the points, works fine. i time mine all in at about 3000rpm so wouldn't know what base / idle timing to use, as mine is high as fuck.

stage 7 cam, shit is that out of 10 stages, that would pretty much make it a 3/4 race cam eh!

yeah it's got a fireball xr700 optically triggered ignition system, not sure if the black box needs to be programmed or something 

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1 hour ago, BLIZZO said:

yea obvious ones here, check for spark, likely something to do with the fancy electronic ignition playing up. if its of a mini sprint what sort of ignition is it? most 4k minisprint engines i have seen run a trigger wheel and hall effect sensor with fancy programmable ignition.

I tried an electronic unit in the dissy on my 4k rally car, after a failure i went back to points with an MSD to drop the current through the points, works fine. i time mine all in at about 3000rpm so wouldn't know what base / idle timing to use, as mine is high as fuck.

stage 7 cam, shit is that out of 10 stages, that would pretty much make it a 3/4 race cam eh!

I've got a xr700 electronic ignition but not sure if the black box needs to be programmed hahaha oops

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1 hour ago, ajg193 said:

Another thing I have encountered with a 4K is if the old signal wire from the points is grounding to the block you will lose your ignition

to the block? ahh sorry I'm kinda new to cars only just did my first engine swap by myself hahah

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https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/xr700 instructions.pdf

 

Does the diagnostic LED on the ignition module blink while cranking?

 

"

ENGINE WILL
NO
T
ST
AR
T
1. Observe the diagnostic LED
while cranking the engine. If the
LED blinks, the optical trigger
and power connections are
okay. If the LED does not blink,
proceed to check electrical con-
nections and optical trigger as
explained in the following sec-
tions.
2. Pull the high voltage coil wire
out of the distributor and con-
nect it to a test spark plug or
place the wire 3/8
away from
ground. Crank the engine. If
sparks fire, the problem is in the
secondary system. Possible
causes: rotor left out, rotor, cap,
or spark plug wires defective, or
timing or phasing is off (optical
trigger not properly aligned, dis-
tributor was moved, or plug wire
firing order was changed).
3. If there are no sparks, connect
a test light between COIL- (neg-
ative) terminal and ground.
Crank the engine. If the light
flashes on and off, the trigger
and module are okay, but the
coil may have failed. Try another
coil.
4. If the light does not flash,
repeat test in step 2 with a
known good coil. Try discon-
necting any wires to COIL-
other than the yellow wire from
the Crane module. The only
extra wire normally connected
to COIL- is the tach wire (or
Lucas diode wire). If the light
still does not flash, the module
may have failed.
5. Fuel injected vehicles only. The
fuel injection system typically
requires a trigger signal from
the COIL- terminal. Refer to
vehicle service manual for
details.

 

:

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2 minutes ago, ajg193 said:

Most people just leave the old points wire in the loom when they remove the points distributor. If the end of the wire touches the engine block at any point it will stop your ignition working.

ohhh right I'll have a look at that, check and check for sparks

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Just now, ajg193 said:

https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/xr700 instructions.pdf

 

Does the diagnostic LED on the ignition module blink while cranking?

 

"

ENGINE WILL
NO
T
ST
AR
T
1. Observe the diagnostic LED
while cranking the engine. If the
LED blinks, the optical trigger
and power connections are
okay. If the LED does not blink,
proceed to check electrical con-
nections and optical trigger as
explained in the following sec-
tions.
2. Pull the high voltage coil wire
out of the distributor and con-
nect it to a test spark plug or
place the wire 3/8
away from
ground. Crank the engine. If
sparks fire, the problem is in the
secondary system. Possible
causes: rotor left out, rotor, cap,
or spark plug wires defective, or
timing or phasing is off (optical
trigger not properly aligned, dis-
tributor was moved, or plug wire
firing order was changed).
3. If there are no sparks, connect
a test light between COIL- (neg-
ative) terminal and ground.
Crank the engine. If the light
flashes on and off, the trigger
and module are okay, but the
coil may have failed. Try another
coil.
4. If the light does not flash,
repeat test in step 2 with a
known good coil. Try discon-
necting any wires to COIL-
other than the yellow wire from
the Crane module. The only
extra wire normally connected
to COIL- is the tach wire (or
Lucas diode wire). If the light
still does not flash, the module
may have failed.
5. Fuel injected vehicles only. The
fuel injection system typically
requires a trigger signal from
the COIL- terminal. Refer to
vehicle service manual for
details.

 

:

oh wow think is super helpful!! thanks a lot will have a read and play around with the dizzy!!

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23 minutes ago, ajg193 said:

Most people just leave the old points wire in the loom when they remove the points distributor. If the end of the wire touches the engine block at any point it will stop your ignition working.

 

20 minutes ago, L0n3Ly.Kp said:

ohhh right I'll have a look at that, check and check for sparks

I had a look and seems like there still is a little bit of wire connected to the coil from the old looms I'll see if it works without those two

 

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5 minutes ago, UTERUS said:

I'm still curious if it's a 7/10 race cam. 

It's 7/7

TOYOTA 3K-4K 1658 MECH STAGE 7 262/262 300/300 335/335 1.5 503/503 104 NZ$140.00 plus gst

Rough idle. Full race. Full mods 4500-8500rpm plus

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11 hours ago, ajg193 said:

It's 7/7

TOYOTA 3K-4K 1658 MECH STAGE 7 262/262 300/300 335/335 1.5 503/503 104 NZ$140.00 plus gst

Rough idle. Full race. Full mods 4500-8500rpm plus

did you install this cam or was it already in the minisprint engine? what else is done to the engine?, im just gunna be a bit of a dick and say it but this is probs wayyyyy to big for a road car engine. for example this is considerable more duration / higher lift than my last competition engine, and is about the same as my new engine. my new engine was built for circuit racing and i have put it in a rally car, so even that has got farrrr too much cam for rallying. im at 260 degrees advertised duration, you are at 262. my cam lift is 332", yours is 335. to get an engine that isnt a bad of shit out of this you are going to need lots and lots of compression to make up for the low dynamic compression ratio from that massive duration. for example my engine runs a 3k short stroke crank, in a 5k block (1394cc) bored to tage 4age forged pistons, with 13.25:1 compression. its strickly an avgas only engine, and also has twin 40 DHLA sidedraughts, a close ratio gearbox to try keep it on the cam along with a 9.5 pound flywheel (stock is 23 pounds, cos 200mm 5k flywheel).

TL;DR, unless you have an engine built around that cam, its gunna be a bucket of shit, and even if it is built around that cam, its gunna be a bucket of shit to drive on the road.

some cam experts can probs chime in here, where's robbie?

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19 minutes ago, BLIZZO said:

did you install this cam or was it already in the minisprint engine? what else is done to the engine?, im just gunna be a bit of a dick and say it but this is probs wayyyyy to big for a road car engine. for example this is considerable more duration / higher lift than my last competition engine, and is about the same as my new engine. my new engine was built for circuit racing and i have put it in a rally car, so even that has got farrrr too much cam for rallying. im at 260 degrees advertised duration, you are at 262. my cam lift is 332", yours is 335. to get an engine that isnt a bad of shit out of this you are going to need lots and lots of compression to make up for the low dynamic compression ratio from that massive duration. for example my engine runs a 3k short stroke crank, in a 5k block (1394cc) bored to tage 4age forged pistons, with 13.25:1 compression. its strickly an avgas only engine, and also has twin 40 DHLA sidedraughts, a close ratio gearbox to try keep it on the cam along with a 9.5 pound flywheel (stock is 23 pounds, cos 200mm 5k flywheel).

TL;DR, unless you have an engine built around that cam, its gunna be a bucket of shit, and even if it is built around that cam, its gunna be a bucket of shit to drive on the road.

some cam experts can probs chime in here, where's robbie?

I just quoted the auckland cams website. I have no knowledge of this guys car/engine. I wouldn't go anywhere near a cam like that

 

 

I'm all about the OEM

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