lonely.Kp Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 hey guys, just installed a new worked 4k engine, with stage 7 rally cam and electronic ignition from a minisprint, and doesnt start. cranks but doesnt start, so I'm thinking its timing. the thing with the timing is I have no idea what the timing will be like with the stage 7 cam compared to the factory if around 8~10 deg if I remember correctly.. any ideas on how to get my kp going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azzurro Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 Stage 7 - gosh! getting it going i would start with the basic factory settings (8-10deg seems about right) and adjust (via dyno?) from there - high power engines are generally set up based on the maximum all in timing (just back from pinking) with idle timing adjusted, if required, to suit However you want it to just run first if its cranking not firing you might have the timing 180 deg out - but start with the basics - got spark Y/N? - got fuel Y/N? - Got air Y/N? if yes to all the above, then check its at 10^deg (static) and once running, tweak from there 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0n3Ly.Kp Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 53 minutes ago, azzurro said: Stage 7 - gosh! getting it going i would start with the basic factory settings (8-10deg seems about right) and adjust (via dyno?) from there - high power engines are generally set up based on the maximum all in timing (just back from pinking) with idle timing adjusted, if required, to suit However you want it to just run first if its cranking not firing you might have the timing 180 deg out - but start with the basics - got spark Y/N? - got fuel Y/N? - Got air Y/N? if yes to all the above, then check its at 10^deg (static) and once running, tweak from there thanks will start from there, I've got fuel, and air (hopefully my side drafts are working) and will check for spark, but the motor was pulled out while running and I haven't played with the dizzy yet so hmmm we'll see, hopefully everything will be all good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg193 Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 As above, you might find that the distributor is 180 degrees out of phase, this happens more often than you'd think with people putting them back into an engine. Make sure the engine is on the #1 compression stroke when you insert the distributor. You'll be able to pull the valve cover off in no time at all (just the two nuts on top), check that both valves are closed (up). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLIZZO Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 yea obvious ones here, check for spark, likely something to do with the fancy electronic ignition playing up. if its of a mini sprint what sort of ignition is it? most 4k minisprint engines i have seen run a trigger wheel and hall effect sensor with fancy programmable ignition. I tried an electronic unit in the dissy on my 4k rally car, after a failure i went back to points with an MSD to drop the current through the points, works fine. i time mine all in at about 3000rpm so wouldn't know what base / idle timing to use, as mine is high as fuck. stage 7 cam, shit is that out of 10 stages, that would pretty much make it a 3/4 race cam eh! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg193 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 Another thing I have encountered with a 4K is if the old signal wire from the points is grounding to the block you will lose your ignition 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0n3Ly.Kp Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 1 hour ago, BLIZZO said: yea obvious ones here, check for spark, likely something to do with the fancy electronic ignition playing up. if its of a mini sprint what sort of ignition is it? most 4k minisprint engines i have seen run a trigger wheel and hall effect sensor with fancy programmable ignition. I tried an electronic unit in the dissy on my 4k rally car, after a failure i went back to points with an MSD to drop the current through the points, works fine. i time mine all in at about 3000rpm so wouldn't know what base / idle timing to use, as mine is high as fuck. stage 7 cam, shit is that out of 10 stages, that would pretty much make it a 3/4 race cam eh! yeah it's got a fireball xr700 optically triggered ignition system, not sure if the black box needs to be programmed or something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0n3Ly.Kp Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 1 hour ago, BLIZZO said: yea obvious ones here, check for spark, likely something to do with the fancy electronic ignition playing up. if its of a mini sprint what sort of ignition is it? most 4k minisprint engines i have seen run a trigger wheel and hall effect sensor with fancy programmable ignition. I tried an electronic unit in the dissy on my 4k rally car, after a failure i went back to points with an MSD to drop the current through the points, works fine. i time mine all in at about 3000rpm so wouldn't know what base / idle timing to use, as mine is high as fuck. stage 7 cam, shit is that out of 10 stages, that would pretty much make it a 3/4 race cam eh! I've got a xr700 electronic ignition but not sure if the black box needs to be programmed hahaha oops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0n3Ly.Kp Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 1 hour ago, ajg193 said: Another thing I have encountered with a 4K is if the old signal wire from the points is grounding to the block you will lose your ignition to the block? ahh sorry I'm kinda new to cars only just did my first engine swap by myself hahah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg193 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 Most people just leave the old points wire in the loom when they remove the points distributor. If the end of the wire touches the engine block at any point it will stop your ignition working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg193 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/xr700 instructions.pdf Does the diagnostic LED on the ignition module blink while cranking? " ENGINE WILL NO T ST AR T 1. Observe the diagnostic LED while cranking the engine. If the LED blinks, the optical trigger and power connections are okay. If the LED does not blink, proceed to check electrical con- nections and optical trigger as explained in the following sec- tions. 2. Pull the high voltage coil wire out of the distributor and con- nect it to a test spark plug or place the wire 3/8 ” away from ground. Crank the engine. If sparks fire, the problem is in the secondary system. Possible causes: rotor left out, rotor, cap, or spark plug wires defective, or timing or phasing is off (optical trigger not properly aligned, dis- tributor was moved, or plug wire firing order was changed). 3. If there are no sparks, connect a test light between COIL- (neg- ative) terminal and ground. Crank the engine. If the light flashes on and off, the trigger and module are okay, but the coil may have failed. Try another coil. 4. If the light does not flash, repeat test in step 2 with a known good coil. Try discon- necting any wires to COIL- other than the yellow wire from the Crane module. The only extra wire normally connected to COIL- is the tach wire (or Lucas diode wire). If the light still does not flash, the module may have failed. 5. Fuel injected vehicles only. The fuel injection system typically requires a trigger signal from the COIL- terminal. Refer to vehicle service manual for details. : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0n3Ly.Kp Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, ajg193 said: Most people just leave the old points wire in the loom when they remove the points distributor. If the end of the wire touches the engine block at any point it will stop your ignition working. ohhh right I'll have a look at that, check and check for sparks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0n3Ly.Kp Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 Just now, ajg193 said: https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/xr700 instructions.pdf Does the diagnostic LED on the ignition module blink while cranking? " ENGINE WILL NO T ST AR T 1. Observe the diagnostic LED while cranking the engine. If the LED blinks, the optical trigger and power connections are okay. If the LED does not blink, proceed to check electrical con- nections and optical trigger as explained in the following sec- tions. 2. Pull the high voltage coil wire out of the distributor and con- nect it to a test spark plug or place the wire 3/8 ” away from ground. Crank the engine. If sparks fire, the problem is in the secondary system. Possible causes: rotor left out, rotor, cap, or spark plug wires defective, or timing or phasing is off (optical trigger not properly aligned, dis- tributor was moved, or plug wire firing order was changed). 3. If there are no sparks, connect a test light between COIL- (neg- ative) terminal and ground. Crank the engine. If the light flashes on and off, the trigger and module are okay, but the coil may have failed. Try another coil. 4. If the light does not flash, repeat test in step 2 with a known good coil. Try discon- necting any wires to COIL- other than the yellow wire from the Crane module. The only extra wire normally connected to COIL- is the tach wire (or Lucas diode wire). If the light still does not flash, the module may have failed. 5. Fuel injected vehicles only. The fuel injection system typically requires a trigger signal from the COIL- terminal. Refer to vehicle service manual for details. : oh wow think is super helpful!! thanks a lot will have a read and play around with the dizzy!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L0n3Ly.Kp Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 23 minutes ago, ajg193 said: Most people just leave the old points wire in the loom when they remove the points distributor. If the end of the wire touches the engine block at any point it will stop your ignition working. 20 minutes ago, L0n3Ly.Kp said: ohhh right I'll have a look at that, check and check for sparks I had a look and seems like there still is a little bit of wire connected to the coil from the old looms I'll see if it works without those two Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UTERUS Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 I'm still curious if it's a 7/10 race cam. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg193 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 5 minutes ago, UTERUS said: I'm still curious if it's a 7/10 race cam. It's 7/7 TOYOTA 3K-4K 1658 MECH STAGE 7 262/262 300/300 335/335 1.5 503/503 104 NZ$140.00 plus gst Rough idle. Full race. Full mods 4500-8500rpm plus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLIZZO Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 11 hours ago, ajg193 said: It's 7/7 TOYOTA 3K-4K 1658 MECH STAGE 7 262/262 300/300 335/335 1.5 503/503 104 NZ$140.00 plus gst Rough idle. Full race. Full mods 4500-8500rpm plus did you install this cam or was it already in the minisprint engine? what else is done to the engine?, im just gunna be a bit of a dick and say it but this is probs wayyyyy to big for a road car engine. for example this is considerable more duration / higher lift than my last competition engine, and is about the same as my new engine. my new engine was built for circuit racing and i have put it in a rally car, so even that has got farrrr too much cam for rallying. im at 260 degrees advertised duration, you are at 262. my cam lift is 332", yours is 335. to get an engine that isnt a bad of shit out of this you are going to need lots and lots of compression to make up for the low dynamic compression ratio from that massive duration. for example my engine runs a 3k short stroke crank, in a 5k block (1394cc) bored to tage 4age forged pistons, with 13.25:1 compression. its strickly an avgas only engine, and also has twin 40 DHLA sidedraughts, a close ratio gearbox to try keep it on the cam along with a 9.5 pound flywheel (stock is 23 pounds, cos 200mm 5k flywheel). TL;DR, unless you have an engine built around that cam, its gunna be a bucket of shit, and even if it is built around that cam, its gunna be a bucket of shit to drive on the road. some cam experts can probs chime in here, where's robbie? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg193 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 19 minutes ago, BLIZZO said: did you install this cam or was it already in the minisprint engine? what else is done to the engine?, im just gunna be a bit of a dick and say it but this is probs wayyyyy to big for a road car engine. for example this is considerable more duration / higher lift than my last competition engine, and is about the same as my new engine. my new engine was built for circuit racing and i have put it in a rally car, so even that has got farrrr too much cam for rallying. im at 260 degrees advertised duration, you are at 262. my cam lift is 332", yours is 335. to get an engine that isnt a bad of shit out of this you are going to need lots and lots of compression to make up for the low dynamic compression ratio from that massive duration. for example my engine runs a 3k short stroke crank, in a 5k block (1394cc) bored to tage 4age forged pistons, with 13.25:1 compression. its strickly an avgas only engine, and also has twin 40 DHLA sidedraughts, a close ratio gearbox to try keep it on the cam along with a 9.5 pound flywheel (stock is 23 pounds, cos 200mm 5k flywheel). TL;DR, unless you have an engine built around that cam, its gunna be a bucket of shit, and even if it is built around that cam, its gunna be a bucket of shit to drive on the road. some cam experts can probs chime in here, where's robbie? I just quoted the auckland cams website. I have no knowledge of this guys car/engine. I wouldn't go anywhere near a cam like that I'm all about the OEM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UTERUS Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 @BobbyBreeze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyBreeze Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 7/10 would cam again. 3 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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