Hyperblade's KP61 Racecar "KP61R" Discussion

[GARDRB]

3 minutes ago, Hyperblade said:

Thanks for those, that's exactly what I was thinking as an option.

Had found this one, which has 32mm in and out and saves on AN fittings (which are horrendously priced now)

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/285850917028

The price is good, the material is better than plastic. I have a theory that my ridiculous alloy one may have a warped surface from being welded and might have a bit of a leak, so $29aud is great

[Hyperblade]

35 minutes ago, GARDRB said:

The price is good, the material is better than plastic. I have a theory that my ridiculous alloy one may have a warped surface from being welded and might have a bit of a leak, so $29aud is great

That would be extremely annoying for that price...

[Rhyscar]

Fan support off back of radiator looks complex - Would it be easier to place oil cooler in front of rad then run a flat sheetmetal plate spaced 10mm off the back of the rad? 

 

Also might be worth considering a oil cooler thermostat (if doesn't have already). Engine heat goes out through the oil OR water coolers (will take path of less resistance right).. if oil runs cold, less heat goes into water etc. Cold oil saps a lot of HP. I think on Kris' dyno it was roughly ~2-3kw difference between 70deg and 80deg oil. Mine runs a bit cold (not above 80deg) even on track. Ideally, I need to put in a hotter thermostat so the oil sits at 90-110deg where it's supposed to be working. 

 

RE ITB's - if you're 3D printing a manifold anyway, personally, I'd stick with the BMW 1000R throttles. A few mm offset isn't going to change flow dynamics. And they are a known quantity. Dave can chip in here and steer away from making throttle linkages and fuckery involved with 'off the shelf' ITBs. Unless you're buying top-end, purpose-made stuff, I think a factory solution is always better. 

[Roman]

Yeah man when I ran the S1000 throttles it was a dream, just kinda plug them in, fiddle PID settings for a few minutes then that was the last of it. 

My recent events trying to get e-throttle working externally has been an absolute nightmare. If I had a 4 cyl engine I would avoid absolutely any other alternative to just buying an all in 1 bike manifold. 

A friend of mine is putting S1000rr throttles onto his Toyota 2AR engine. So he's had a spacer machined up to split them further apart, so the offset to each pair isnt so drastic.

Could be worth looking into.

 

[kpr]

keep in mind mr  bmw has done his math with the outlet size.   if you take into account the throttle plate,  its pretty similar area .    Not saying dont grind them out.  just saying the plate will be the restriction after  you do. 

I would be tempted to go bigger as you are almost getting smaller than a k  port,  ideally you want to taper up  from port, so the high pressure is closer to the valve not the throttle plate.     But the spacer option as above could work out well for port spacing.   look  into how much meat is in the housing. maybe able to put bigger plates in them.   i was tempted to try it with mine, but lost interest.  

 

s65 are closer to 52mm.   maybe 51.5mm  

[Hyperblade]

9 hours ago, Rhyscar said:

Fan support off back of radiator looks complex - Would it be easier to place oil cooler in front of rad then run a flat sheetmetal plate spaced 10mm off the back of the rad? 

 

Also might be worth considering a oil cooler thermostat (if doesn't have already). Engine heat goes out through the oil OR water coolers (will take path of less resistance right).. if oil runs cold, less heat goes into water etc. Cold oil saps a lot of HP. I think on Kris' dyno it was roughly ~2-3kw difference between 70deg and 80deg oil. Mine runs a bit cold (not above 80deg) even on track. Ideally, I need to put in a hotter thermostat so the oil sits at 90-110deg where it's supposed to be working. 

 

RE ITB's - if you're 3D printing a manifold anyway, personally, I'd stick with the BMW 1000R throttles. A few mm offset isn't going to change flow dynamics. And they are a known quantity. Dave can chip in here and steer away from making throttle linkages and fuckery involved with 'off the shelf' ITBs. Unless you're buying top-end, purpose-made stuff, I think a factory solution is always better. 

I really would like to avoid running the cooler at the front, it puts more heat into the radiator, harder to route hoses to, and the amount of debris picked up from cars in front and shot at you is actually surprising high (including bolts...) which means the front takes a hammering. Obviously will be ducted at the front which helps limit the risk but it's still not great. I also need to leave back of radiator open as it will be ducted out of hood again so there won't be a fan shroud. 

But your right that it makes it more complicated for mounting everything behind.

A thermostat is just another failure point, I had a good quality one originally when I put an oil cooler on the 3SGEand ended up gutting it internally as it just didn't behave as it should. 

For reference my oil temps are hitting between 110 and 125c after 8-12 laps. I'm pretty sure it was the exit ducting being the problem, but never got round to taking it off to confirm it. 

That's assuming it's not something else mechanical e.g. the oil pump putting a lot of heat into the oil.

This is current spacing with the S1000RR ITB's, it feels just a bit off to me.

But I really would like to just reuse something factory it just makes life so much easier.

3 hours ago, Roman said:

Yeah man when I ran the S1000 throttles it was a dream, just kinda plug them in, fiddle PID settings for a few minutes then that was the last of it. 

My recent events trying to get e-throttle working externally has been an absolute nightmare. If I had a 4 cyl engine I would avoid absolutely any other alternative to just buying an all in 1 bike manifold. 

A friend of mine is putting S1000rr throttles onto his Toyota 2AR engine. So he's had a spacer machined up to split them further apart, so the offset to each pair isnt so drastic.

Could be worth looking into.
<sweet picture>

I can certainly see it as a daunting task to get working right if you custom build them (just syncing them is a pain, which is already done with the S1000RR ones). Taking something off the shelf is very attractive. Especially when you have already proven it works.

I see the later models had a split design which looks much easier break apart, however then I guess your left with trying to drive 2 motors at the same time, not sure how that would work e.g. can you wire them up together and treat them as one in the ECU (but then is there internal feedback loops for TPS)?

 

Please tell me more about this spacer... Especially how the internal linkage was handled, better yet let me put my order in for one to what I need...

When I had them apart, I could see you would need to machine in the holes to locate the ends of the shafts and stuff.

But couldn't work out the linkage.

Tell me more...

54 minutes ago, kpr said:

keep in mind mr  bmw has done his math with the outlet size.   if you take into account the throttle plate,  its pretty similar area area.    Not saying dont grind them out.  just saying the plate will be the restriction after  you do. 

I would be tempted to go bigger as you are almost getting smaller than a k  port,  ideally you want to taper up  from port, so the high pressure is closer to the valve not the throttle plate.     But the spacer option as above could work out well for port spacing.   look  into how much meat is in the housing. maybe able to put bigger plates in them.   i was tempted to try it with mine, but lost interest.  

 

s65 are closer to 52mm.   maybe 51.5mm  

The intention with boring them out was the jenvey ones run 46mm on the back side of their ones, which is a close match to the port size on the head. so would basically be same diameter all the way to the port e.g. 48mm > 46mm > port as opposed to 48mm > 42.5mm > 46mm > port.

I hear you on the size, on the other hand real world results have shown the 48mm Jenvey ones to beat the others for sale. Now that might mean that Jenvey just know how to actually make something that works and just used one of their standard sized throttle bodies (I mean they do offer 50mm ones now which I don't think they did before).

Had a look online, found one person who had looked like they had bored out the latest version of the ITB's (split version) to 50mm, so it may be possible, not sure I want to go through all that hassle/expense/risk at this point in time.

I may just have to compromise for now and go with something that works knowing that HP might be left on the table.

A spacer in the middle would be more then enough to get the shape looking ok, so that looks to be the way to go if possible.

[Roman]

Regarding the oil cooler, have you considered mounting it out of the direct flow path, then putting a fan on it? 
This way you dont need to deal with thermostat or overcooling.
I tried this ages ago and it cooled the car so well, that even when stationary it didnt need a radiator fan to ever come on.

[Roman]

Also I like the idea of orienting cooling systems that arent adding any extra parts that can fail or leak. 
Sometimes I daydream about the idea of mounting an oil cooler of sorts inside the sump, or on the oils return path. But the oil flows on the outside, and there is water/coolant on the inside. 
So if any of the external lines break, it just drops water out and doesnt affect your oil. 
The factory heat exchanger things on the engine blocks are bloody good. 
I've seen a few rally cars that use them over an oil to air cooler, because they're not susceptible to rock strikes and can be mounted somewhere with a shorter return path.
 

[Hyperblade]

11 hours ago, Roman said:

Regarding the oil cooler, have you considered mounting it out of the direct flow path, then putting a fan on it? 
This way you dont need to deal with thermostat or overcooling.
I tried this ages ago and it cooled the car so well, that even when stationary it didnt need a radiator fan to ever come on.

No hadn't considered that, I don't think that would work considering heat produced and laps done but I guess you lose effectiveness at higher speeds (compared to ducted) and gain it at lower speeds so might average out. Does takes HP away from engine via the alternator... 

11 hours ago, Roman said:

Also I like the idea of orienting cooling systems that arent adding any extra parts that can fail or leak. 
Sometimes I daydream about the idea of mounting an oil cooler of sorts inside the sump, or on the oils return path. But the oil flows on the outside, and there is water/coolant on the inside. 
So if any of the external lines break, it just drops water out and doesnt affect your oil. 
The factory heat exchanger things on the engine blocks are bloody good. 
I've seen a few rally cars that use them over an oil to air cooler, because they're not susceptible to rock strikes and can be mounted somewhere with a shorter return path.
 

I had actually considered refitting the factory one, however was mixed thoughts online if it was enough for circuit racing, BTU capacity was like half of my current oil cooler.

Problem is I would have to buy one as I sold mine, but also the water feed comes from the factory pump which I've removed. So it makes more water plumbing hassles.

[Roman]

Ahh so the thing with the dual springs inside them. 
The "resting" position for these throttles is about 5% open. 
So you have to actively push them shut with ethrottle to close down the idle further. 
If you can, get rid of that spring that holds them open like that. It's a real pain for ECU PID settings to work around.

Might make your linkages easier that way too.

[Hyperblade]

20 hours ago, Roman said:

Ahh so the thing with the dual springs inside them. 
The "resting" position for these throttles is about 5% open. 
So you have to actively push them shut with ethrottle to close down the idle further. 
If you can, get rid of that spring that holds them open like that. It's a real pain for ECU PID settings to work around.

Might make your linkages easier that way too.

Ahh ok I've found the spring your talking about, doesn't look easy to remove 😕 might be able to move it off it's mount though. There is an adjustment screw on it (really tiny) I assume you maxed that out?

The one I was talking about seems to be to put pressure on the driven linkage, which I can't feel any play in, so maybe it's just to create some resistance on them otherwise they spin really easily???

[Roman]

I never had mine apart, so not sure about any of the inner workings. I just noticed that it would always spring a bit open.

[Hyperblade]

2 minutes ago, Roman said:

I never had mine apart, so not sure about any of the inner workings. I just noticed that it would always spring a bit open.

Yeah it has this spring here

This bolt seems to control it so may play around with that first.