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Anyone familiar with early 80's Honda electronic ignitions?


kdotlowe

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Hi all,

 

Posted some questions in regards to this in spam yesterday in which Kyteler helped me out. Posting here in a last attempt to see if anyone knows anything about these ignition systems.

 

Long story short, first generation Civic, EN1 engine and electronic ignition out of an early 80's Civic I believe. Car was running fine until I blew the head gasket. Head gasket is all fixed, good compression, but I'm not getting any spark whatsoever.

I've installed the distributor by having cylinder one at TDC at the end of it's compression stroke, distributor rotor is pointing just before cylinder one's HT Lead. 

 

Few things I've looked into.

  • Coil resistance is within spec. Have tried 3 seperate coils to 100% rule them out - still no spark.
  • I'm getting voltage at the coil and ballast resistor - dropping as expected when turned over.
  • Swapped out coil lead to a good one from my Escort - still no luck. 
  • Battery is fully charged and have tried another spare battery. 

 

Now, from what I understand, even if my distributor was timed incorrectly, I should still get a spark - albeit an out of time one. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I'm used to working with points, so this electronic jazz is like black magic to me.
I assume there's a magnetic pick up within the dizzy that sends a signal to the ignition module which in turn fires the coil - if so, I believe this ignition module is the problem.

 

Can anyone confirm my theory here? Or even better - would anyone know how to test this module, or better again, would someone have a module I could test?

 

Absolutely doing my head in, and my girlfriend is dying to drive her car haha.

Any help appreciated.

K

 

 

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Given you can see voltage drops at the coil but no spark means your list of potential problems is short.

Coil, leads, cap and rotor.

Only other thing I can think of is you have the ballast hocked up the wrong way, Main power on the cranking side. This would result in 12v with the car running and 6v when the starter is used. QED no spark on start up.

 

Check the distributor cap for a crack or broken contact for the coil connection.

Check the earth for the distributor, as close as you can to the pick-up and to the battery terminal.

Check for loose connections on every wire you have disconnected and reconnected, look for things like frayed wires, sudden kinks or displaced contacts in blocks.

 

This is real backyard way to test any coil.

Disconnect everything from the coil, then connect an earth to the negative side and a coil lead with a grounded spark plug attached (no distributor cap).

Next run a wire from the positive side of the battery, tap* that wire on the positive coil terminal, it should result in a spark.

Tap* needs to be a quick strike on the terminal not a touch and hold, the shorter the connection period the cleaner spark you should see. This is a manual way of creating the Hall effect a coil needs to work.

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Given you can see voltage drops at the coil but no spark means your list of potential problems is short.

Coil, leads, cap and rotor.

Only other thing I can think of is you have the ballast hocked up the wrong way, Main power on the cranking side. This would result in 12v with the car running and 6v when the starter is used. QED no spark on start up.

 

Check the distributor cap for a crack or broken contact for the coil connection.

Check the earth for the distributor, as close as you can to the pick-up and to the battery terminal.

Check for loose connections on every wire you have disconnected and reconnected, look for things like frayed wires, sudden kinks or displaced contacts in blocks.

 

This is real backyard way to test any coil.

Disconnect everything from the coil, then connect an earth to the negative side and a coil lead with a grounded spark plug attached (no distributor cap).

Next run a wire from the positive side of the battery, tap* that wire on the positive coil terminal, it should result in a spark.

Tap* needs to be a quick strike on the terminal not a touch and hold, the shorter the connection period the cleaner spark you should see. This is a manual way of creating the Hall effect a coil needs to work.

 

Thank you! I appreciate this. 

 

I haven't disconnected the coil or ballast - they've been on the car the whole time so I assume it's correct as it was running before. Wires run from ignition module -> ballast -> positive side of coil. I hope that's correct. 

 

Would the distributor earth through the connecter that goes to the ignition module? I'll check this tonight. Will also check the coil via your method. Cheers!

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I don't recall using a ballast resistor with an electronic distributor (and it doesn't make sense to use one to me) but if it ran wired up like that before then you wouldn't want to change it.

 

Electronic distributors (with a spinning soft iron star shaped thing inside them (a reluctor?)) will only spark if you have the polarity around the right way. IIRC the Subaru ones we used on Cortina motors spun anticlockwise like the Honda units, and the black wire didn't go to earth. The black wire from the dizzy went to somewhere else .... I think the + ve post on the coil, but it was 2007 when I last touched one so I can't remember sorry

 

The only other thing I can think of is that you have the distributor out of phase (so when the spark triggers the rotor is between two distributor cap posts)

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I don't recall using a ballast resistor with an electronic distributor (and it doesn't make sense to use one to me) but if it ran wired up like that before then you wouldn't want to change it.

My Mitsubishi has electronic ignition and a ballast resistor, I was surprised to find out it's factory.

On the Mitsi one of the dizzy wires goes to the + on the coil and the other wire goes to the ballast.

/Ling post.

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I don't recall using a ballast resistor with an electronic distributor (and it doesn't make sense to use one to me) but if it ran wired up like that before then you wouldn't want to change it.

 

Electronic distributors (with a spinning soft iron star shaped thing inside them (a reluctor?)) will only spark if you have the polarity around the right way. IIRC the Subaru ones we used on Cortina motors spun anticlockwise like the Honda units, and the black wire didn't go to earth. The black wire from the dizzy went to somewhere else .... I think the + ve post on the coil, but it was 2007 when I last touched one so I can't remember sorry

 

The only other thing I can think of is that you have the distributor out of phase (so when the spark triggers the rotor is between two distributor cap posts)

 

Just had a look at the wiring, there's only one way it can be wired - connector from the dizzy to module, spade connector to negative post of coil, and ring connector from ballast to positive of coil. So I'm certain it's wired the same as when it was running. Will check all grounds tonight.

 

Is it possible to have the dizzy out of phase? The distributor rotor will only slip onto the shaft one way. Can I pull the dizzy out, and spin it by hand to try find spark?

 

 

Make sure you have earthed the ignition module / ignitor properly.

I run an EN1 dizzy and ignitor in my mini which is great.

 

I'll have another look tonight. I'll give everything a cleanup. 

 

Cheers

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Is it possible to have the dizzy out of phase? .......Yes, but it will still produce a spark, will just hit the wrong cylinder.

 

The distributor rotor will only slip onto the shaft one way. Can I pull the dizzy out, and spin it by hand to try find spark?................. Unlikely to work, most triggers rely on a grounded sensor.

 

How are you checking for a spark? Do you know what we are talking about when we say "Ground", "Grounded", "Earthed" etc.

They all mean the same thing. A direct connection to the negative side of the battery!

 

This means the spark plug has to connected to the lead and with the steel part resting on the negative terminal or any metal part of the engine.

I know it's a simple thing but if you just have the spark plug hanging on the end of the lead you will never see a spark.

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How are you checking for a spark? Do you know what we are talking about when we say "Ground", "Grounded", "Earthed" etc.

They all mean the same thing. A direct connection to the negative side of the battery!

 

This means the spark plug has to connected to the lead and with the steel part resting on the negative terminal or any metal part of the engine.

I know it's a simple thing but if you just have the spark plug hanging on the end of the lead you will never see a spark.

 

Yes I'm well aware they're the same definition and understand how to test for a spark correctly. 

 

I haven't had a chance to look at the car tonight, but when I have a chance I'm going to check the ignition modules earth & clean up if necessary. Might bite the bullet and source a replacement.

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Think I may have found the problem. Tested the coil by tapping the positive terminal with a feed from the battery - no spark.

 

Figured it must have been the coils earth (which runs into the loom). Ran a new earth from the negative coil post and I got spark. Going to hook it all up properly tomorrow night and hopefully that's the end of that (providing the rest of the ignition is sweet haha).

 

Thanks all!! Really appreciate the guidance.

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I'm likely reading your post wrong.

But did you earth the - terminal on the coil to the car's body/negative terminal on the battery??

 

I tested the coil with the original earth (wired into the loom and earths on the firewall) which gave me no spark. I removed that and added my own from the coil to the body and I got spark. 

 

Hope that make sense.

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Woah mate. That's a very very very bad idea.

The whole idea of a coil is for power in on the + side and a TIMED earthing on the - side.

The test I described is only a way to check the coil is making a spark and not how it should be connected when it's in the car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All you will achieve with a full time earth on ether side is a fried coil or a wiring fire in the engine bay or under the dash.

I think you need to start from the beginning.

Hock up everything as it should be then test each stage in turn.

You know the coil is capable of creating spark and you are seeing voltage drops at the coil so a signal of some sort from the distributor/ignitor is getting that far. Weather that signal is good enough to create a spark is another matter.

Connect a spark plug to the coil and see if you're getting spark.

If yes then it's all about timing, firing orders and HT parts to get it running.

If no then there's a problem with the wiring, ignitor or sensor in the distributor. (this is where the checking each wire and component starts)

With the dissy disconnected you should see 6v ish in the on position and 12v ish when cranking at the positive terminal on the coil.

If the voltages are low start checking for broken wires or poor connections in those wires between the coil, ballast and ign switch.

Once the basic power supplies are checked and repaired move on to the sensor and ignitor.

Start by tracing and checking the wires between each bit and it's earthing.
When you are sure all those connections and wires are good the easiest way to check the sensor and ignitor is by replacement or take them to a sparky and get them checked on an oscilloscope.

There's any number of Oldschoolers here that can help with ether option if you ask.

This strategy should get you going with as little drama as possible.
 

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