jericho injector bench build

[scooters]

 

Obligatory: 

 

 

 

Ha thanks your a champ... When it's a graph you can see the dip... That dip is easier to see on a line graph than a tube! worst case the rig can handle x1 2500cc injector or x6 at 400cc.... in current stage 1 form. 

It's not really a big drama just un plug the injectors I don't really need... much bigger fuel pumps will come. 

[scooters]

this project is excellent, good work man

cheers bro it will only get bigger and better with time. 

[scooters]

You could hook up a small air compressor (regulated down to 40psi or so) then use the ecu and closed loop boost control to control pressure to the reg?  Would need a map sensor in line but via a boost control solenoid you might be able control it? Possibly setup a potentiometer to use as a dial for manual adjustment if you wanted and feed into an analog input on the ecu, setup a boost control table based on that? Would need some fettling...

 

 I can't quite concept this in my head. with a haltec it would have to be run in frequency mode. with it set to No home trigger. So only sequential will be possible. But I am unsure if I can overlay a closed loop boost map. Need to talk to a haltec gun...

 

 I must add the haltech will need to have one or it's digital outputs feed back into it's signal so we can generate what we need it to see... 

know what I mean? 

[Roman]

Regarding fuel pressure / air pressure in the cylinder etc I guess you need keep your goals in mind - Which is to gett some good data for ECU to work from.

So first you need to stop and look at what sort of data you can actually enter into ECUs that are available.
Myself and Sentra Dave spent some time testing his injectors but then found that the Link G4 (as opposed to G4+) doesnt have things like short pulsewidth compensation or minimum opening time. (It was still a worthwhile exercise though!)

 

In terms of deadtime changing with fuel pressure / air pressure at different differentials, even if you could measure this in every possible combination I dont think there's any ECU that can accept information that complex. 

 

In the Link ECUs at least, you can setup a 3d deadtime table using "Fuel pressure differential" as one of the axes. (generally used in conjunction with fuel pressure sensor) Well, you can setup the deadtime table using any axes you want but Batt Voltage and Fuel Pressure Differential make the most sense.
 

So this means if you have 60psi fuel pressure and 14psi air pressure (Absolute)

our fuel pressure differential is 46psi, so that's where you'd need to enter your deadtime info for your 60psi fuel pressure test.

If you have 60psi fuel pressure and 14 pounds boost then your fuel pressure differential is down to 32psi. (Where the injector will be garbage, which is why rising rate regulators are needed)

So the question here, is does the fuel pressure differential change by a huge amount when boost pressure and fuel pressure rises?

As in, is 60-14 the same as 80 - 34.

Unless someone is statically running 80-100psi (~75 psi fuel pressure differential) then you might not need to measure that high anyway. 
As best I know there arent many fuel pumps that can sustainably push a constant 80-100psi+ without eventually causing pumps to fail. Which is why mechanical pump is used for common rail diesel or direct injection petrol engines. Also common when people are running methanol or whatever where the fuel volume is huge.

For my engine I was considering running at 75-80psi static fuel pressure.
But the problem I found with raising fuel pressure this high was that the minimum opening time to get fuel flow increased as well, especially at low voltages
Like at 8 volts you might not even be able to open an injector at all when there's 100psi holding it shut. Also the fuel pump started sounding pretty strained.
You can see this on the spec sheet for the Injector Dynamics page, for the ID1000 for example they cant show you deadtime for 75psi onwards at 8 volts because it just wont open.

http://injectordynamics.com/injectors/id1000/ 
 

[downtrail]

I think i would be more inclined to make a propriety unit to run this rig off rather than using an ecu. Sure an ecu is good but if you write your own bit of software for a micro controller build a board with injector drivers couple of transistors to switch things etc then you can go crazy with how to simulate an engine. have outputs controlling the solenoid that raises and lowers the fuel pressure reg.

 

you could set up a few scenarios such as a drag race(foot flat through the gears), drifting(foot on and off the gas balancing the car) street driving(just lots of time in cruise with a few start stops) etc

 

skys the limit 

[scooters]

That is a great idea. I could make all sorts of tests the drag race makes a lot of sence. but then I just have to work threw the boost reference side of things... even just sweeping from 1% duty and up to 100% in time frames that I can set and adjust.

I don't really know who I would talk to about this sort of thing. Id need lots of code or a program that I could make changes to.

any ideas on who to talk to?

 

The other thing that I have thought about is that the FET's in the controllers are going to be different between each controller. So if you test with 1 the results might change If you were to test with another. There will be slight differences between a haltech /megasquirt/microtech in the way they give data for latency/dead time results.

 

ROMAN: I will get back to you tonight. much thinking needed to give you a good answer.

[Roman]

Running a drag race etc might be an interesting way to quantify FPR operation / comparisons. 

 

Like, I wonder if some react a lot quicker when flow changes a lot (like you've got 6x1000cc injectors at 80% duty cycle, then instantly stoppping)
 

I wonder if you'd get pressure spikes on some FPRs vs others.

Would be interesting to see if one "Big" FPR reacted better than two small ones.
 

I reckon for high flow situations it might be an interesting idea to have two FPRs, one set at say 3psi higher than the other. 

 

So all the flow goes through one until it gets outflowed then both start working.

[scooters]

Dual reliefs is similar to a way a circuit works in a digger (as I work for a machine repair company)

Basic function works like this...   you set circuit reliefs up for every function on the machine bucket, arm, tracks etc...

they will all blow off at a lower pressure than what the main relief is set to. The main relief is really the safe device.

If a circuit relief is set to high above main relief the main relief will blow off before some sort of major fail... like a blowen hose or cylinder.

 

How this works in the injector bench I'm not so sure it will apply. 

 the reg at the moment looks like it can deal with the flow. I do not see any pressure spikes but it does seam to fluctuate about 2-3 psi on the gauge. It doesn't seam too bad.. the fluctuations could even be my pump feeling the misery of being made to work at 120psi.

 

unless I was dealing with crazy high flow more than what -8 lines and the reg can take it's not going to max out on the current pump set up.

I won't know what it will do when I change to some good plumps... That looks like the next step. Instead of 2.5 l per min it might be closer to 9 or 10 Liter per min. I am sure the pump I have will shit very soon. It smells like electrical burning and it's done a few hard runs..

I would never use this in a vehicle.

remember as pressure comes up the flow drops back. This is really a pump issue. Hence if you want to run the big pressures more pumps are needed as the flow will drop back as per the test you so kindly graphed for me.

 

Roman Would you agree the first step id to get some Injector Dynamic injectors and then see if I can make a voltage offset vs pressure table and see if I can come up with the same results as the they provide for the injector?

[downtrail]

Ive done a few programs for my own projects id be interested in helping develop something thatll work for you.

[Ned]

You wanna look for real short bursts though or fuel pressure rising, so log it with your controller for sure.

 

different FETs in different controllers is negligible. Injector dead time is often measured in mS or at least very high uS. FET switching time is measured in nS... quite a bit faster, and the difference between most FETs is sweet fuck all... plus a lot of them use VERY similar hardware inside them anyway.

 

I would make my own rig to test injectors. You just need to build a variable frequency drive with a decent FET on the end. Will be pretty easy to do on an arduino or something if you feel like fiddling around for a couple weekends. And that way you have complete flexibility as well, and can make it do whatever you want after that

[Roman]

Roman Would you agree the first step id to get some Injector Dynamic injectors and then see if I can make a voltage offset vs pressure table and see if I can come up with the same results as the they provide for the injector?

I reckon just start out with any sort of injector.

 

Then run some basic tests, get some data, try make sense of it. (This is where some excel wizardry etc comes into play)

In my case I had three clear goals before I started:

-Decide on a fuel pressure at which to run.

-Find deadtimes at the fuel pressure I have decided on.

-Establish where the non linear portion of injector operation is, and build a compensation table if necessary.

If you have different scope for what you are trying to acheive, you might want to run some different types of tests.

But I think start simple - come up with a plan for what you want to acheive, get some data and then go from there.

There's a lot of complex ideas floating around currently but I think you'll find even a fairly modest setup it will probably raise more questions for you than answers! And might give you some clarity around what direction you want to take it.

[sidewaysickness]

Great build. If you want to play around with a serious injector, I have a injector from a Wartśila Vasa 32. (320mm piston bore). It's only got a 350 bar cracking pressure! But I did learn alot about these injectors on the test beds at sea, how the cracking pressure affects the spray pattern and shit.

[scooters]

I some how have serious doubt the pintle will fit in the holes in the top of my rig . let alone ever being able to find a tool to make that pressure... But am looking at a 6000 PSI porta power across the workshop.. hmmmm

 

watsila engines are the go. especially the big cross head 2 stokes with the stuffing box's.. amazing how you get rid of the engine thrust by adding a piston pin between the rod and the piston.

[scooters]

You wanna look for real short bursts though or fuel pressure rising, so log it with your controller for sure.

 

different FETs in different controllers is negligible. Injector dead time is often measured in mS or at least very high uS. FET switching time is measured in nS... quite a bit faster, and the difference between most FETs is sweet fuck all... plus a lot of them use VERY similar hardware inside them anyway.

 

I would make my own rig to test injectors. You just need to build a variable frequency drive with a decent FET on the end. Will be pretty easy to do on an arduino or something if you feel like fiddling around for a couple weekends. And that way you have complete flexibility as well, and can make it do whatever you want after that

 

I'm so pleased to here it about the FET's  I have something semi interesting that has been going on. It's my stage 1 controller. It'g got some very heavy duty FET's in it and it's been slightly modified for my needs. 

Again I have had help from a family member who is a electrical engineer. Very happy with PCB boards unlike myself. Enter the BST 501. China's finest. 

 

I can control the HZ and the pulse width.. you can also adjust on the fly be it slowly. It's not the most elegant of controllers but it will indeed help with dynamic flow testing and because I can control the voltage and amps to this controller i can in turn keep tabs on injector voltage. 

So it's also good for getting latency/ dead time data. I asked the man from china to make it 12,000 RPM capable... and it is and nearly spot on within 1 HZ. So I can test at any duty I feel like.

 

When I first ran the injectors the BST was clobbering the flyback and I was loosing the injector stone dead about 58 HZ. So the diodes have been removed and and the earthing has been changed around. The BST has been run up and I have calibration data. So I know that it is doing what it says it is. The controller takes no notice of any latency. It's just rattling the injectors doing what I tell it to do. And all the test data on it is bloody close. 

 

 

So it's a simple little thing but really at this stage there is no need for a ECM... Unless you have another take on this.??

 

 

 

[fletch]

Great build. If you want to play around with a serious injector, I have a injector from a Wartśila Vasa 32. (320mm piston bore). It's only got a 350 bar cracking pressure! But I did learn alot about these injectors on the test beds at sea, how the cracking pressure affects the spray pattern and shit.

Lol, those injectors are massive!

I spent a few years working on a pair of turbo wartsila Vasa 18V46GD modified to run dual fuel. They were diesel up to 11MW then 365Bar gas up to 16MW.

The injectors used to sieze into the head and took a 200T press to push them out.

[scooters]

If any of you guys want to make some sort of comment good bad or otherwise about this for a first controller i'm all ears. 

Thanks for all the input so far. 

[Ned]

Did you get a China man to design that for you? Doesn't look too bad from a first glance. Couple 'wtf you doing there trev?' Moments but none that scream out anything super important.

Keen to hear how you got about getting that made, and some idea on what it cost would be cool if that's ok? Just curious is all.

Having a sweep, or program option, or maybe just a serial port to set the values would be cool so you can automate it. When you start logging fuel pressures and things, you might want all of that to be logged in one place? So you know what the settings of the injectors were when you go back through the logs.

Maybe having that separate from the controller could be cool though, so get the logger to log the duty cycle and frequency etc separate as a sanity check in the log, just in case something happened and it leaves the injectors on too long due to some weird internal glitch in the code or something.

Just thinking out loud

[scooters]

Did you get a China man to design that for you? Doesn't look too bad from a first glance. Couple 'wtf you doing there trev?' Moments but none that scream out anything super important.

Keen to hear how you got about getting that made, and some idea on what it cost would be cool if that's ok? Just curious is all.

Having a sweep, or program option, or maybe just a serial port to set the values would be cool so you can automate it. When you start logging fuel pressures and things, you might want all of that to be logged in one place? So you know what the settings of the injectors were when you go back through the logs.

Maybe having that separate from the controller could be cool though, so get the logger to log the duty cycle and frequency etc separate as a sanity check in the log, just in case something happened and it leaves the injectors on too long due to some weird internal glitch in the code or something.

Just thinking out loud

 

This is made by spark tech. Some no one company in china. They market it as a tool to rattle the injectors while the injectors are sitting in a ultrasonic bath. Why they give you some much control over the pulse width and hz i'll never know. 

Owen who is a family member who has been helping me along with all this suspects that this controller is a bit of a 1/2 way development. The end product we will never get to know why or what. But some where along the line they decided to release this to make a bit of money and put a injector trigger box on the market.

The processor thats in it i'm told is way overkill. It's could easy do the job of rattling the injectors on one leg with it's arm tied behind it's back. SO who really knows what is really going on with it. 

 

The mosfet F.E.T's are avalanche rated and I think flyback clamps about 55v.

 

When I got it I didn't expect it to be any good. In fact the sequential and group fire options do not work at the HZ the screen is saying it's doing... But the batch fire (all 6) works spot on right up to 200 hz. 

 

Like I said the diodes clobbered the flyback and the injectors just clamped shut so they are gone. There are also options to run a  fuel pump and a/c compressor clutch... So without the diodes it will never be able to do that job.

 

I hope this helps 

[scooters]

Forgot the price was under $200 landed here in NZ. 

 

i'm sure the processor is capable of sweeping and all sorts of other interesting tests but I don't think it will ever happen as the language barrier between me and the engineer is as good as baby talk... He wants to set me up as a NZ dealer I don't give a fu*k... I wan't more out of his controller and he won't entertain the idea.  and neither of us can advance further so it is what it is. 

 

To do all automation will require a different unit. + data logging. In my head thats a way off. 

[Italia]

Cool Project!

 

Saw this video a while back, might be interesting if you haven't already seen it.