scooters Posted November 27, 2016 Author Share Posted November 27, 2016 Didn't do a lot today. I pulled the fuel reg down for a look. Found the inside where the fuel comes in was a wall. Great for making heat and hurting flow if not creating turbulence. This reg may not work out to well but I got stuck into it with a die grinder and made the best of it I could... It might surprise me and hold a rock stable fuel pressure. But if it can't i'll be binning it in favor of a turbosmart reg. I will also boost reference the rig. So that means I can run any fuel pressure like in a vehicle. The fittings were bad... my son who is 2 could have cut better threads with a hack saw.. so they have been binned in favor of -8 stainless fittings. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 Clearly you understand all about it. it's kind of the whole point of the test rig. Sorry if I came across the wrong way. I think what you're doing is awesome. It's so gross that you spend $$$$ on injectors from a company like Sard and then they give you no injector info. wtf. Look forward to seeing what data you get once this is finished, I'll try keep my off topic rambling in check until then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cletus Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 cool project. might be a noob question, but is there some sort of vent for each tube to let the air out as the fuel goes in? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooters Posted November 27, 2016 Author Share Posted November 27, 2016 Sorry if I came across the wrong way. I think what you're doing is awesome. It's so gross that you spend $$$$ on injectors from a company like Sard and then they give you no injector info. wtf. Look forward to seeing what data you get once this is finished, I'll try keep my off topic rambling in check until then. Oh no not all all. The more input you have the better. I'v actually learned from the way you did your testing. Feel free to talk with me about it i'm open to whatever. You have been there and done it. So keep all input coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooters Posted November 27, 2016 Author Share Posted November 27, 2016 cool project. might be a noob question, but is there some sort of vent for each tube to let the air out as the fuel goes in? A fine question thanks for making me think. Being that the injectors are not sitting in a manifold with air rushing past there has been no real reason to make the tubes full sealed. The injectors sit in the black alloy adapters (for top feed) and the side feed rail fits straight into the top without the need for the black adapter. In both cases with the adapter and the side feed rail the fit is good but it's not going to be air tight. If the tubes were going to fill in less than 1 second with all that air needing to be displaced in a short amount on time id be in a state of panic. But the tubes fill at a slow rate of 3.7 cc per 1 mm of fluid height. How fast the tubes fill is depending on what the injector is rated to at static flow... ie 1500cc injectors is 1500cc per min. which if I do that I will burn them out because injectors wont last at 100% duty. So the air will make it's way out slowly as the tubes fill. Any dust contamination that may get in while switching injectors out will be caught by a series of fuel filters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 Dont worry too much about the fuel heating up. What really heats up the fuel in cars with multi pump setups. Is the hot fuel rail on the engine, and circulating same gas back to a small surge tank and back again.With a normal big metal fuel tank the tank itself is a big heat sink so can dissipate most/all of the heat from the rail when the fuel is circulating. Sometimes people setup surge tanks etc so it goes from fuel rail to little 3 litre container or whatever, round in circles to the rail and back so soaks with heat. Modern direct injection diesel cars where they run crazy high PSI have a fuel cooler on the return line. But that's generally because they're going to 100s of PSI and also because a lot of modern cars have a plastic fuel tank that doesnt dissipate heat like a metal one. In your case your entire test bench works as a heat sink to keep the fuel cold as well so you should get some good consistent results. The only problem you'll have with the FPR being a restriction (Thats its job) is that if you've got a big grunty fuel pump that out flows it.In which case you wont be able to reduce pressure enough, but do you really need to measure at 25psi or whatever anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooters Posted November 27, 2016 Author Share Posted November 27, 2016 Dont worry too much about the fuel heating up. What really heats up the fuel in cars with multi pump setups. Is the hot fuel rail on the engine, and circulating same gas back to a small surge tank and back again. With a normal big metal fuel tank the tank itself is a big heat sink so can dissipate most/all of the heat from the rail when the fuel is circulating. Sometimes people setup surge tanks etc so it goes from fuel rail to little 3 litre container or whatever, round in circles to the rail and back so soaks with heat. Modern direct injection diesel cars where they run crazy high PSI have a fuel cooler on the return line. But that's generally because they're going to 100s of PSI and also because a lot of modern cars have a plastic fuel tank that doesnt dissipate heat like a metal one. In your case your entire test bench works as a heat sink to keep the fuel cold as well so you should get some good consistent results. The only problem you'll have with the FPR being a restriction (Thats its job) is that if you've got a big grunty fuel pump that out flows it. In which case you wont be able to reduce pressure enough, but do you really need to measure at 25psi or whatever anyway. Excessive flow not using large enough fluid conductors. To much fluid flooding the relief. There are all sorts of things that make heat. In a ideal world my pump would give just over the fuel needed to meet the demand. At the moment I will be starting with a china 044 but that can be switched for anything if I have a issue. It's more just something to get the rig going. A pump is not critical as long as it's meeting the demand then it's fine. I will keep a very keen eye on the heat situation. I don't want it to jump around too much between tests. I am yet to decided on the tank but it could be a 20L steel drum of a 60 L stainless tank I just happen to have here. It's encouraging that you think heat building up wont really be a issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooters Posted November 29, 2016 Author Share Posted November 29, 2016 Finally stood the thing up. I feel like iv moved it 200 times. Been trying to get it all square. Pick up the pump tomorrow. Be interesting to put the pump threw the ringer and see what flows I can get at given pressure. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingbrick Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Random thought- I hope you have a few good fire extinguishers and smoke alarms there Incase something somehow goes wrong. Impressive setup too! Very interesting reading all this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muncie Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Id suggest putting it in a cabbinet with a bottle of Co2 ready to dump in there electricity pressure and atomized fuel. Scary shit awesome well thought out project though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris r Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think he will be using fuel to test them? Also would it be a idea to use a pwm controller for the fuel pump to help with fuel pressure/heating etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooters Posted November 30, 2016 Author Share Posted November 30, 2016 Random thought- I hope you have a few good fire extinguishers and smoke alarms there Incase something somehow goes wrong. Impressive setup too! Very interesting reading all this Id suggest putting it in a cabbinet with a bottle of Co2 ready to dump in there electricity pressure and atomized fuel. Scary shit awesome well thought out project though. correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think he will be using fuel to test them? Also would it be a idea to use a pwm controller for the fuel pump to help with fuel pressure/heating etc I'm glad you are all so worried about how safe I am while running this thing. It's the truth that if you are going to test something the best bet is to use the fluid that you want your data from in this case pump fuel. But if it were a dragster maybe methanol or other. Fuel was looking like the only option..... but then. Basicly I spent a lot of time searching for things that are like petrol but don't have a ability to erupt into a big fire ball. There are not a lot of choices. Most injector rigs use white spirits or diesel. Which are close but not exactly like fuel when you look at specific gravity and viscosity. I needed the help of a chemist that knows all about non toxic non flamable liquids. But this is not a viable option. Iv ended up with a liquid that is still a hydro carbon but it wont light up to a naked flame or a spark. (yet to be tested with diffused sprays) the best thing is it is very close to the proerties of pump fuel. So it should go well in the rig. You can buy calabration fluid but I have not found any in NZ. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooters Posted November 30, 2016 Author Share Posted November 30, 2016 Got my pump and hooked it all up. Took the gauge home from work for the night and wound the rig up... What do ya know it makes pressure... 42- 120 psi I can't argue to much with that. But at what flow??? more to come. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooters Posted November 30, 2016 Author Share Posted November 30, 2016 Flowed out my pump... 3896 cc per min @ 42psi 3467cc per min @ 60psi 3185cc " " @ 75 PSI 2815cc " " @ 90 PSI 2638cc " " @ 110 PSI 2519cc " " @ 120 PSI A nice thing is that it is fairly linear as pressure comes up flow drops away... Same as any pump in the history of man. Im a little sad... It's a 044 style pump I think it's probs ok when I look at what a real 044 does... As this is the poor China brother. This is where it really matters now I know how many injectors and how big I can test at a time. In time once I get going I can upgrade the fuel system all I want. This is all just a jury rig to get it running so I can start testing. It will be fine but like all things There are always limitations to what the rig will pull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooters Posted November 30, 2016 Author Share Posted November 30, 2016 correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think he will be using fuel to test them? Also would it be a idea to use a pwm controller for the fuel pump to help with fuel pressure/heating etc That PWM idea is fantastic... I will look into it.. I don't think it will mater to much not but down the track when the pumps get massive it will be a great thing to play with. Cheers man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downtrail Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 I like what your doing. No idea how you guys actually come up with flow data for injectors etc. but would be cool to have a simulation mode where instead of having a fixed duty and time to work out the flow ( i guess thats how you do it) youd have say 10 seconds of cruising with very little injector duty at a fuel pressure thats under vaccum on the reg. then have it ramp up to say 90% duty over 40 seconds with the fuel pressure raising accordingly or so then back down to cruise etc. Not sure if that idea helps at all but to me seems like a better way to simulate real world driving conditions with the fuel pressure raising as the load is raised etc. Would be cool to see if they kept up with each other over there entire working range. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooters Posted December 1, 2016 Author Share Posted December 1, 2016 I like what your doing. No idea how you guys actually come up with flow data for injectors etc. but would be cool to have a simulation mode where instead of having a fixed duty and time to work out the flow ( i guess thats how you do it) youd have say 10 seconds of cruising with very little injector duty at a fuel pressure thats under vaccum on the reg. then have it ramp up to say 90% duty over 40 seconds with the fuel pressure raising accordingly or so then back down to cruise etc. Not sure if that idea helps at all but to me seems like a better way to simulate real world driving conditions with the fuel pressure raising as the load is raised etc. Would be cool to see if they kept up with each other over there entire working range. Hey man.. I like your thinking. So consider what I have now to be a stage 1 of 3... 1 being I can prove a concept after I have found out everything I can with what I got... pumps and controller will be upgraded. likely to something like a haltech or a megasquirt. The megasquirt is cool you plug a sim ups it's bum and then it "thinks" that it is like a real vehicle running injector pulse width and RPM or speed can be controlled with trim knobs between 0% duty and 100%. If there is really anything to be gained from being able to change the injectors on the fly im not so sure. If a injector has a block problem it's blocked and it should show right threw the range. It does not unblock. I do think how linear the injector performs will indeed change. Haltech can be told to work in near the same way with a bit of thought. Being able to change things quickly on the fly like real world is cool... very cool. It will happen in time. Along with better pumps. Fuel pressure is a little harder. All engines make different vacuum at different times and some make more vac than others. its a little harder to gauge, But it's easy enough to do. As you know. Just apply pressure to the reg and watch the pressure. Or do what im doing now and crank it up with a alan key. It's just getting the varibles working in the correct setting and time frame. If you have any ideas on how I do this i'm all ears. Eventually I will offer this up to anyone that wants some real good data and info on their injectors but thats down the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 You could hook up a small air compressor (regulated down to 40psi or so) then use the ecu and closed loop boost control to control pressure to the reg? Would need a map sensor in line but via a boost control solenoid you might be able control it? Possibly setup a potentiometer to use as a dial for manual adjustment if you wanted and feed into an analog input on the ecu, setup a boost control table based on that? Would need some fettling... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Flowed out my pump... 3896 cc per min @ 42psi 3467cc per min @ 60psi 3185cc " " @ 75 PSI 2815cc " " @ 90 PSI 2638cc " " @ 110 PSI 2519cc " " @ 120 PSI Obligatory: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sentra Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 this project is excellent, good work man 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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