Gav's 200sx RPS13 1JZGTE of race car.

[~Slideways~]

OK this thing is fighting me, I've got it running but badly. Starting but very reluctant, rough at idle (have to hold pedal open) and runs like arse.

At first it was very rich due to going back to the 1000cc injectors, updated dead times.

Changed the master fuel to 7ms and lowered the fuel table until it wanted to run (much lower than the Link 1jz vvti base maps I could find - one for 1600cc inj and one is stock). But still terribly. 

I did find that once at around 3000rpm it would rev cleanly which is positive (maybe indicating cam timing issue?)

 

Timing:

Timing marks all line up.

Timing light showing 10deg with Link on the timing config screen.

I have it set to 196 offset, while recommended is around 200 but this is probably from a shaved head and block. 

 

Fuel:

Emptied tank and put fresh 98 in.

Checked the fuel filter, fine but changed anyway.

Tested the injectors with Link and can hear clicking.

Removed injectors and tested with some pressure from carb cleaner spray can and tapping terminals with 12v. All seems fine.

 

Spark:

Tested all 6 coils for spark and all seems fine.

 

Triggers:

Trigger scope looks ok as far as getting a clean signal I think, maybe there is an issue with the cam tooth overlapping with the crank missing teeth position?

A while ago I realised that the crank trigger polarity was wrong according to a few Link forum posts stating that the missing tooth gap on the graph should be rising not falling. So I swapped it, but with all of the running issues it didn't seem to make a difference.

From what I understand, it will work either way with reluctor sensors but can cause it to read the missing tooth gap as an actual tooth, due to being a 'fall' in the gap and miss read the crank position.

Maybe I should test it both ways but getting my head around it seems like the below photo is correct.

Excuse the phone photo's, it was late...

 

 

Cam timing (trigger 2) offset:

The other issue is that the Link help file suggests the Trigger 2 (cam) offset should be around 170. But if I run the Cam Angle test I get 85 / 325 / 565 (ish) and the Link forum suggests you should use the lowest number, so I used 85.

There are 3 teeth on the cam, none are anywhere near 170, so is this my problem?  

I thought maybe the intake cam was 'stuck' within the VVTi pulley since I took it apart to replace the o-ring ages ago. So I took the cam cover off and moved the cam with a spanner (non interface so should be fine but I also loosened the oil feed to release any pressure), it moved fine and about 30deg or so while the vvt pulley/cambelt stays in position. I THINK it shouldn't matter where it is before starting since it is non-interference the 'slack' should be taken up when the cambelt turns the pulley and the VVT solenoid should not be applying any oil pressure to the pulley internals.

 

Trigger thresholds:

I tried lowering the Voltage thresholds but made no difference.

 

VVTi solenoid:

I also took out the VVT solenoid and tested it with 12v to see if it is moving. Movement seems to be working fine. Also ran the Link PWM test at different settings and all seem to be ok.

 

After all of this I am now worse off, it is now getting trigger errors and it is getting RPM spikes with a tiny amount of throttle which trigger the RPM limiter. I can see it spike from around 1000 rpm to over 7500rpm and lots of triggers errors. I only have time to do this late at night so its a small gap of testing a few things then the battery dies and it's too late to wake everyone up anyway. So maybe I have forgotten a change I made since I was previously able to get it to rev cleanly around 3k.

 

All I can think of is that the cam timing is out or the polarity is actually wrong now, I remember being meticulous with putting the vvti pulley back together but I am now second guessing myself.

 

 

Cars man. 

 

 

 

[shrike]

Have you used a timing light on it as well to make sure the timing matches to what the link is saying?

I can't remember if your using wasted spark or not but if you are remember that the timing will read double with  a digital timing light as its reading it twice (this caught me out in the past)

All your sensors are reading and plugged in? its not something silly like the O2 sensor not being calibrated and the target AFR table trying to dump more fuel in? or your cold start enrichment table?

If it was me id triple check timing, check all sensors are calibrated/plugged in/ reading as expected and see if that helps.

Then if it doesn't make a difference throw a base map at it and adjust that for injectors

That should remove a lot of your variables

Silly question but have you done a compression test?

[~Slideways~]

17 minutes ago, shrike said:

Have you used a timing light on it as well to make sure the timing matches to what the link is saying?

I can't remember if your using wasted spark or not but if you are remember that the timing will read double with  a digital timing light as its reading it twice (this caught me out in the past)

All your sensors are reading and plugged in? its not something silly like the O2 sensor not being calibrated and the target AFR table trying to dump more fuel in? or your cold start enrichment table?

If it was me id triple check timing, check all sensors are calibrated/plugged in/ reading as expected and see if that helps.

Then if it doesn't make a difference throw a base map at it and adjust that for injectors

That should remove a lot of your variables

Silly question but have you done a compression test?

Yep confirmed with timing light.

It's Coil on Plug, had to use a extension to be able to use the timing light but it worked fine and was adjusted in the link to match 10deg.

As far as I can tell off the top of my head, getting TPS (calibrated), MAP (calibrated), 2 x Trigger (crank and cam), Water temp, Air temp, Wideband isn't actually wired into the Link, it's an Innovate MTX-L which I don't really trust the readings of anyway. They don't have the best reputation unfortunately.

I have been tempted to take it all apart and recheck the vvt pulley and cam belt but hoping there is something I've missed which will avoid doing all that again.

I haven't done a compression test no, this is the first time running since rebuild so rings won't even be bedded in etc. But since I am getting Trigger errors, it's the most likely thing to start with. Just not sure why really.

The Crank sensor is new too, well maybe a few 100km old. 

[mjrstar]

 

Fuel:

Are the injectors batch fire or sequential?

Is your fuel pressure regulator set and confirmed pressure.

Have you confirmed the map sensor is playing the game ( watch a live trace of fuel or ignition? The reason I ask is I'd assume 3000rpm feels like about where it might be sitting at low or no vacuum - similar reading to no hose on.

Ignition:

It could be retarded if it feels happier up in the Rev range where maybe it's got more timing in the map. I'd add 10 degrees in a plateau around it's current idle land, just 6 or 8 cells in the table to see if there is any decernable difference. 

Trigger errors  - how many is lots.

20 year old me had an engine with the cam timing out by 2 teeth on both cams and it idled smooth as silk but lacked power up top. (It still made 190 wheel kw) but after fixing the cam timing it made 240kw from a 2 litre.

[~Slideways~]

5 minutes ago, mjrstar said:

 

Fuel:

Are the injectors batch fire or sequential?

Is your fuel pressure regulator set and confirmed pressure.

Have you confirmed the map sensor is playing the game ( watch a live trace of fuel or ignition? The reason I ask is I'd assume 3000rpm feels like about where it might be sitting at low or no vacuum - similar reading to no hose on.

Ignition:

It could be retarded if it feels happier up in the Rev range where maybe it's got more timing in the map. I'd add 10 degrees in a plateau around it's current idle land, just 6 or 8 cells in the table to see if there is any decernable difference. 

Trigger errors  - how many is lots.

20 year old me had an engine with the cam timing out by 2 teeth on both cams and it idled smooth as silk but lacked power up top. (It still made 190 wheel kw) but after fixing the cam timing it made 240kw from a 2 litre.

Injectors: Sequential.

Fuel Pressure: 43psi on the FPR gauge while cranking. I haven't watched it while running (have to hold pedal).

Map: I can watch the fuel table trace moving around with a little vacuum or pressure but will try logging it.

IGN: OK will try adding 10 deg. I did try using the ign table from my old map as well as a base map. 

Trig errors: I can seeing it counting up in single digits while cranking, then after a few seconds of rough running it's up to 60+. I don't know what is 'acceptable' but something is very wrong for the rpm signal to spike for a split second from idle to over 7500rpm and immediately applying the rpm limit cut, every time I slightly press the pedal. This is only in the logging graph, not physically revving that high. It triggers the RPM limit warning, it didn't do this at first so I will have to go through everything again.

[mjrstar]

Maybe slop in the cas drive if you have a really short term rpm spike, you could temporarily raise the rpm limit to a million so long as your confident in the throttle setup not jamming open, or some other fuckery.

[~Slideways~]

4 minutes ago, mjrstar said:

Maybe slop in the cas drive if you have a really short term rpm spike, you could temporarily raise the rpm limit to a million so long as your confident in the throttle setup not jamming open, or some other fuckery.

Its a reluctor sensor reading 3 teeth on the cam. It is giving me 3 consistent readings on the cam angle test so I think it's ok. But the actual reading/position may be wrong, this is where the Link help file for this engine suggests the cam offset should be 170 but you use the Cam Angle Test to find the correct number. Mine gives me 85, 325 and 565 and I'm not sure why and if that is an issue. 

[~Slideways~]

Maybe I need to increase the trigger arming threshold, possibly too low?

[mjrstar]

Yeah perhaps the gap on the crank trigger, or supply voltage, assuming the crank does rpm, and the cam does engine positioning, rather than an all in one CAS.

[~Slideways~]

OK bit of progress, the RPM limit was happening when the Cam trigger 2 offset was set to 85 which is the lowest number I get in the cam angle test.

I was reading somewhere that this can happen if it is too close to the timing of the missing teeth on the crank. Causing it to think the crank has 'jumped' 360deg

So if I set it to 170 which doesn't match any of the reported cam angles, it runs OK and does not RPM limit and revs ok but still has a constant trigger error counting up.

 

 

Here is the Cam Angle Test runtime screen, the most telling thing is that while running it says 'Error Cannot Sync' next to Inlet/ LH Signal (where the below screenshot shows 'no signal')

 

So it really seems like a cam timing and/or signal issue. But why?

[~Slideways~]

Here is a trigger scope around 2000rpm. Is the cam signal just on or just after the crank gap a problem? 

Map sensor is doing map things:

[Roman]

I've had really random looking trigger issues from it not liking the arming threshold settings. 

Could be worth a try bumping them up. 

Also if the VVTI is stable you could try advancing the cam and see if it goes away when the cam moves out of that zone. 

[kpr]

have a tune here off a running  vvti  2jz,    vvti offset  172  and   trigger offset 200.     

I would be double checking the  cam timing isn't a tooth out.  

when setting vvti offset,   try set it a number or 2  higher  than what its reporting in the cam angle test.  as it can walk a bit.     once you get it working log the vvti target vs the vvti position.      Put zero in the vvti target map.  if the position is  hanging higher than the target when target is zero,  you can  wind the offset back.   but keep it reading a touch above zero.  as can get unhappy  if the cam angle trys to go below zero

[~Slideways~]

15 hours ago, Roman said:

I've had really random looking trigger issues from it not liking the arming threshold settings. 

Could be worth a try bumping them up. 

Also if the VVTI is stable you could try advancing the cam and see if it goes away when the cam moves out of that zone. 

I've increased for the crank trigger but no cam, so will give this a go.

12 hours ago, kpr said:

have a tune here off a running  vvti  2jz,    vvti offset  172  and   trigger offset 200.     

I would be double checking the  cam timing isn't a tooth out.  

when setting vvti offset,   try set it a number or 2  higher  than what its reporting in the cam angle test.  as it can walk a bit.     once you get it working log the vvti target vs the vvti position.      Put zero in the vvti target map.  if the position is  hanging higher than the target when target is zero,  you can  wind the offset back.   but keep it reading a touch above zero.  as can get unhappy  if the cam angle trys to go below zero

Thanks for the advice, I'll try increasing the number reported in the cam angle test.

Will double check the cam timing again.

 

Thanks for the input guys.

[kpr]

Forgot to say;  for reference,  without the cam belt on you should be able to move the vvti pulley  by hand very easily.  first few times through its travel will push the oil out.   but if binds up before coming to a hard stop, loosen the bolts off and slowly tighten them up a bit at a time, while moving the pulley back and forward.    should move 30 deg as you say  (60 crank degrees) 

[~Slideways~]

Got it all sorted and back on the dyno to run in and see what it can do.

I drove it around the block to test for leaks etc and had no misfire. So put on trailer ready for dyno.

Sounds like it behaved on the dyno which is a relief after so much work.

Had an arbitrary goal of a responsive 300kw at the wheels, made 290kw @ 18psi around 6k, so plenty of revs left, seems to be limited by the turbo.

Looking at the graph it trails off earlier with more boost. So probably exhaust wheel/housing (12cm twin scroll). Maybe the 25nb runners, but that doesn't explain it trailing off earlier with higher boost (well maybe but the exh ports match that size and I've seen 25nb runners on a 1jz make more).

Peak at around 6k so maybe later I'll try a bigger turbo. Either a Holset with a known exhaust wheel/bigger housing or a Pulsar something or other, but I don't really want to have to change plumbing etc.

I really just want to drive it and finally confirm if the intermittent misfire is gone. I can't really be happy until I've done that since it had been fighting me for so many years.

But two explanations for the misfire and melted piston. One injector became unhappy and flowed less and the major was finding a factory fitted solder blob on the Link.

 

So suuuuuurely after all of this, including a full rebuild I can enjoy the car now right? Come on car gods, don't fuck me up again lol

Next up wof, then actually test drive it more than onto a trailer.

 

[mjrstar]

The ~200kw at 4000rpm range is the same as my old evo. It had a nice punchy feel to it.

 

[~Slideways~]

I've driven it for around 2.5hrs total now. First drive was almost an hour and no misfire (fuck-yeah-mother-fucker-fuckyou-you-goddamn-intermittent-fucking-bastard-get-fucked, etc etc).

So I'm quite happy about that.

Took my kids for a drive each (only 2 seater) both loved it and their first experience in something properly fast. 10y/o boy said he couldn't stop shaking with excitement and didn't want to go home and 7yo girl shrieked with glee and giggling, said it was like a roller coaster (she went on the big 'adult' roller coaster at Rainbows End 10 times). Of course I drove it just enough to give them some excitement without being silly. 

Man it's responsive, even 3rd gear at 30kph it makes boost instantly. 

I wonder how long it'll be before I want more power. Definitely the fastest I've ever driven, more than my old 220kw at wheels ae92 and that was only 900kg.

Getting used to it again, drove to work and found it bottoms out on the stupid gate rail which sucks. Might make some wooden ramps haha

 

[Rhyscar]

Awesome, glad to hear you're enjoying driving it. Near on 300kw is a lot for anything that's street driven!

[SiRge]

Giz a hoon g 😇