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Tech Spam thread - because 1/4" BSP gets 5 hand spans to the jiggawatt


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I'm running C4 pads from BNT on the KP rotors and have had zero issues with fade when thrashing the car. Old pads before that were a different story.

 

But then again you guys are just going to say "The Starlet weighs like 5 kg it isn't even a real car."

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2 hours ago, ajg193 said:

I'm running C4 pads from BNT on the KP rotors and have had zero issues with fade when thrashing the car. Old pads before that were a different story.

that may have been what i fitted ?

@Bling what is the state of the front shocks ? if the shocks are fucked, or too soft, the brakes will work harder. if you have the bigger diameter strut tube, a cheap option is CE70 shocks. they are valved different for the heavier diesel engine.

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13 hours ago, Bling said:

Yeah i'm just keen on brakes that won't limit my hill driving. Do it right, do it once etc. Cheaper to just replace with stock bits by a mile.

 

MRP lists 262mm for 14" wheels, will look into those deets closer to the time.

I realise your car is a bit heavier, but I could never ever fade standard S13 250mm brakes with standard small piston S13 brakes on my old B110. Only once was I able to even make them smell hot. And that was fair peddling it down quite a long descent. (Still had zero fade, and the pads were the cheapest nastiest shite money can buy. Silverline)

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1 hour ago, smokin'joe said:


@Bling what is the state of the front shocks ? if the shocks are fucked, or too soft, the brakes will work harder. if you have the bigger diameter strut tube, a cheap option is CE70 shocks. they are valved different for the heavier diesel engine.

Shocks won't be an issue, will be getting adjustable platform wedged in it. Overkill for what I want to achieve, but future proof.

@RUNAMUCK I just want better brakes overall to be honest. The stock setup was never designed with abuse in mind. Sadly I lack TE7* chassis which will have come with better bits. I figure if I'm going to the effort of redoing the whole lot, I might just pony up the coin and get something decent. Cert will already be required for car, so makes sense to do it in one hit.

 

Reason for question is that I wasn't sure how having uprated brakes (by a margin) would affect overall braking performance. I don't want to end up finding out the rear needs upgrading to discs as that will be a PITA. An adjustable proportioning valve is a relatively easy solution.

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you don't need a MASSIVE disc for stopping power, the key is getting enough swept area without going overboard, you also dont NEED expensive 4 or 6 pot calipers.. My civic is approaching 1100KG's with me in it and it is capable of scrubbing speed at a far greater than my brembo equipped evo ever did, and does better than my whale falcon with 355mm rotors, the runs some 282 mm dicsc from some MG, and a honda odyssey caliper, plus some super dusty carbotech pads, these take an absolute beating with nothing in the way of fade. A good pad compound with a decent amount of master cylinder will do wonders.

Something around a 260mm disc is enough for a sub 1000kg sub 200hp car, for occasional track use.  If you are doing repeated lap after lap track work you may find the smaller the disc the less ability to dissipate heat, so for say an endurance car you run a slighlt less agressive pad and compensate with a larger swept area. As for bias, you may find the rear brakes are fine for car control you will be wanting it to have more front bias and increasing in bias as you apply more load, a rear upgrade may actually be the opposite of what you want as you transfer more weight forward.

/TL:DR put the bluebird or whatever nissan stuff people put on with good pads and fluil, upgrade the master cylinder (all cars are under master cylinder sized IMO) unless you are 90 years old with no leg muscles. - i like a high firm brake pedal to give maximum confidence.

 

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Disc would be around that 260 mark. Reason for the kit is that it seems like a proven combo that doesn't require me to find any parts to get the job done. Buy kit, fit kit, cert. Overkill, and will exceed my requirements, but I'd rather have more in the tank as more speed will hopefully come later. I've read many many threads on the number of combos you can run. Most parts are now unicorn spec or require custom brackets etc.

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Custom bracketry isn't hard. 

I'm going to run series 4/5 rx7 4 pots with 280mm  (22mm thick) Honda prelude rotors on my 510. Big brakes mean you need to run big wheels. The S13 swap fits under 13" alloy wheels/14" steels.

I know less than nothing about Toyota,  but depending on the offset/backspace of your hubs a brake conversion isn't that hard 

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Those mrp brake kits are pretty good. And like you say it's an easy bolt on and it's all new stuff you don't have to rebuild.

Vented discs and decent pads will be a huge improvement as far as fade goes

 

(I assume your car is solid disc)  

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51 minutes ago, cletus said:

Those mrp brake kits are pretty good. And like you say it's an easy bolt on and it's all new stuff you don't have to rebuild.

Vented discs and decent pads will be a huge improvement as far as fade goes

 

(I assume your car is solid disc)  

Yeah that is pretty much why i'm leaning towards kit. Nothing needs to be rebuilt. Even if I lego together another bunch of parts (quite easy with Toyota), i'll still need to rebuild whatever calipers I end up with and buy new discs to suit.

Current discs are solid yeah, and approx 200mm diameter... even with 13's the brakes look comical. A ~260mm kit would be more than enough I think.

 

I can appreciate that I can cobble many parts together and get a good braking setup. I just don't have the motivation to go through that process. It would save me money for sure, but it might also put the finish time back 6 months. By the time I find the right bits, rebuild them all, find it hits on something else, get more bits machined, find the master is no longer suitable, sort a bolt in replacement for that. I've seen multiple Toyota parts that you can bolt up. Often you end up needing to find different struts, certain steering arms, then get such and such discs machined down etc. Not Ken.

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20 minutes ago, Bling said:

I can appreciate that I can cobble many parts together and get a good braking setup. I just don't have the motivation to go through that process. It would save me money for sure, but it might also put the finish time back 6 months. By the time I find the right bits, rebuild them all, find it hits on something else, get more bits machined, find the master is no longer suitable, sort a bolt in replacement for that. I've seen multiple Toyota parts that you can bolt up. Often you end up needing to find different struts, certain steering arms, then get such and such discs machined down etc. Not Ken.

the recipe i am using, well proven in KE and KP

willwood superlite 4 pot   

AE86/Late KE70 hubs and 230mm AE86 discs

CAD machined brackets

 

can still run a 13" wheel, only variable is bolt pattern for donor struts

owe me less than $400 and only hubs are s/h

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Did you get those brackets made yourself? Sub $400 isn't exactly typical for a pair of 86 rotors, brand new superlite calipers, new pads and a custom made bracket. Unless of course this was $400 in 198something lol.

 

I think I have my answer in any case, so thanks for the suggestions guys. I'm sure it won't be my last tech question.

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2 hours ago, Bling said:

Did you get those brackets made yourself? Sub $400 isn't exactly typical for a pair of 86 rotors, brand new superlite calipers, new pads and a custom made bracket. Unless of course this was $400 in 198something lol.

brand new 86 rotors from brake shop here in town $75

brand new willwoods from idiot that was broke $200

CAD CNC brackets from mate in Dunedin $100

all in the last 12 months, not fitted to car, yet.

late hubs made me $25, once i sold bare struts to an 86 owner

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6 hours ago, ajg193 said:

@NickJ doesn't really like Wilwood I think

I'm with him on that, on a road car I would go an OEM brembo 4 pot off something else rather than a wilwood caliper. If there was no suitable 4 pot then an OEM sliding caliper would be option 2. I have 6 cars in the shed with diy brake upgrades now.

The modelling, testing and level of quality of pretty much any oem car part far exceeds pretty much anything aftermarket. (Big generalisation I know)

If wilwood was genuinely an awesome caliper they would be popping up on oem performance cars.

So when the latest focus RS of golf R comes with Wilwoods I will change my mind.

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