Yowzer Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Your airflow puts a cap on how much power you can make. No point tuning for maximum power before you have the maximum available air entering the cylinder. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg193 Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 If the air goes straight through the engine due to valve overlap it doesn't help produce any power whatsoever. Just now, Yowzer said: Your airflow puts a cap on how much power you can make. No point tuning for maximum power before you have the maximum available air entering the cylinder. What you're suggesting is pretty much equivalent to saying is the amount of poop a cow makes puts a limit on how much milk it can produce and therefore you should make cows shit as much as possible - whacking them with a stick is ideal for milk production! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yowzer Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 You'll see that on your 02 sensor NA engines don't have that problem as much as boosted engines, as excessive overlap creates a reduction in manifold vacuum which = less airflow. Sort of. At low RPM anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Yep you'll see that on the wideband, I'm actually hoping to see some evidence of this happening once I've got exhaust side VVTI. But I think there's just not enough overlap with only one cam moving and stink arse factory cam profiles. But I might need bigger cams. Or you just might not actually see this at all. Your MAF readings, then how much fuel you're putting in to suit, wont end up reaching your target AFR. It'll show leaner than it should. If there was evidence of this happening currently I'd expect it to curve my fuel table a bit. But this is the most accurate fuel table I've ever had, and it's nearly a straight line all the way across. Especially at high load. Where as when I tuned same motor with MAP sensor, because the relationship between MAP and actual oxygenated fresh air airflow is convoluted, it looks like a complete mess because of harmonics and shit like that. As well as needing to compensate for internal EGR making the lower parts look weird too. There are heaps of variables which mess with the pressure>mass equation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yowzer Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 The amount of air you'd lose to scavenging would be pretty fuck all, wouldn't it? If anything it's beneficial as it's clearing all the exhaust out before it fills again? Pretty sure that's how it works 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Just now, ajg193 said: What you're suggesting is pretty much equivalent to saying is the amount of poop a cow makes puts a limit on how much milk it can produce and therefore you should make cows shit as much as possible - whacking them with a stick is ideal for milk production! That's a terrible analogy, perhaps closer would be to say that a cow cant produce more milk than the amount of water it drinks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yowzer Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Yeah I have no idea how that analogy works. Maybe it's relevant to 4Ks? If you want me to be more specific, which I didn't think I had to as it seemed pretty obvious, maximize the mass of air in the cylinder 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Just now, Yowzer said: The amount of air you'd lose to scavenging would be pretty fuck all, wouldn't it? If anything it's beneficial as it's clearing all the exhaust out before it fills again? Pretty sure that's how it works Thats more what I'm thinking, that a more likely scenario is that you're actually only ever clearing the old gas out of the cylinder with a certain efficiency. But with some much bigger cams its probably more of a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yowzer Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Best get those cams then. I wanna see more graphs! And then you can play with getting an NA engine over 100% VE 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yowzer Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 OK I'm gonna go build a loom to connect my MS2 to a 5MGE now 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg193 Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Just now, Roman said: That's a terrible analogy, perhaps closer would be to say that a cow cant produce more milk than the amount of water it drinks. Yeah I realized it's a stupid analogy straight after posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Just now, Yowzer said: Best get those cams then. I wanna see more graphs! And then you can play with getting an NA engine over 100% VE Yeah the problem has been that there arent any aftermarket cams which could fit the single VVTI engine. They only fit the manual dual VVTI motor (which is now in the hole! hooray) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roman Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Just now, ajg193 said: Yeah I realized it's a stupid analogy straight after posting. It's actually a pretty reliable metric though, like ECUs which have a torque request strategy use a calculated grams/sec of airflow as their torque estimate (Motec M1 etc) I guess an easy way to visualize it, is why does shutting the throttle make your car make less power... less air flow. increasing airflow is just like making your throttle go 110% open haha. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Just now, Yowzer said: OK I'm gonna go build a loom to connect my MS2 to a 5MGE now Shit have you seen the MS2PNP stuff? The whole pre-built ECU's are pretty expensive but they did a run of all sorts of common nippo-denso ECU connectors which you put on a extension board and can plug and play your factory loom. Lots of the ones we would want are discontinued but I would hunt one down if I had a 80's Toyota EFI project because the normal MS connector is gay. https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/hardware/diypnp/available-models/ I would have bought a few of the 4age ones just because if had know about them when they were available. A couple have come up on facebook MS groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yowzer Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Yeah I was pretty damn tempted to get one, but saw they were discontinued last night too. Ruined that fun Yeah this plug sucks. Ah well, a tonne of hot glue will keep everything together 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Can you confirm that your 5MGE is the 52pin version? If so I will try nab any that show up on for sale in the future, I see a 5M crown or some shit in my distant future. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yowzer Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 I have plenty of ECUs, maybe I'll chuck the MS in the factory case to keep the plugs. Edit: actually that would be a pain as I still need a board to attach the plug to. And unsoldering it would suck. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yowzer Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Just now, Spencer said: Can you confirm that your 5MGE is the 52pin version? If so I will try nab any that show up on for sale in the future, I see a 5M crown or some shit in my distant future. Yup that's the sucker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yowzer Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Lol I built this stupid thing years ago with a pile of modifications, but the HDD that had all the info on it died. Yay backtracing my mess. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transom Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Ok so has anyone looked into the rusefi kitsets / assembled - speeduino style but current top version is capable of 12 cylinder sequential injection and ignition https://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Hardware_Frankenso_board 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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