Rhyscar's Toyota Levin - 2zzge Touring car - finished*

[Roman]

Good progress all round! 

If the noodle cups makes 10kw more than trumpets, do you think you'll revise your airbox? 
 

[Rhyscar]

It could happen! 

 

After this testing I'll be printing some revised trumpets (maybe based on noodle cups) to get length and diameter fine-tuned. Will also refine the airbox mounting to get it 100%

[Rhyscar]

Pretty successful day with @KPR dyno yesterday. Car ran well all day, no issues and no major oil leaks thankfully (found a dripping gearbox seal but thats about it). 

 

Cracker morning coming over the habour bridge. Left home 5am, got home 9pm so big day. 

 

 

Confirmed the 2zzge makes 121 noises - god damn it sounds good. Revving out to 8700rpm as there wasn't much more to be gained up top. 

In true KPR style, we tried some longer trumpets to bring the power band down a bit. This netted good results, picking up 4-5kw just below lift (5000rpm) and 6-7000rpm (where it will land after a gear change). This resulted in a nice juicy, flat power curve that will be a joy to drive. Original trumpets 135mm long (370mm from valve), ideal setup ended up being 185mm long (420mm from valve). It possible my trumpets were acting a bit shorter too, due to the large diameter bellmouth. 

I'll eventually do a re-print of the trumpets to adjust a few things and increase the length to what we found works best. Kris essentially did 2x full tunes - one for each trumpet length!

 

 

Some interesting learnings

1. oil temp makes a big difference to power. the difference between 70-95deg can be a few kw. So thankful I've got the HEL thermostat to go on the oil system. 

2. Oil pressure was amazing all day. Dropped off a little up top, but still 80psi at 8700rpm. 

3. All the 2zz's seem to make about the same power (131-134-136kw ish), no matter what different setups people run for intake/exhaust. I've done a lot more work to mine than most(11.8CR, 1mm O/S valves + springs, headers, ITBs, underdrive pulleys etc etc), and only making a fraction more power. That is NA tuning the an extent, but can't help but think theres a restriction in the head that needs addressing to unlock a step-change difference in what they make. I've got a spare head at home I can tinker with, but it will probably be a problem for another decade. 

 

God damn, I can't wait to street lurk in this car. Looks so cool. 

 

Will share some videos in next few days when I get around to putting something together - go see IG for some instant gratification - https://www.instagram.com/reel/DNWf9QJyI7D/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

[Vintage Grumble]

I didn't know Danny Carey was your tuner! Amazing drummer also.

[Roman]

Stoked that the day went well! 

137kw is fairly well honking for an 1800cc motor, will be at least 200-210hp at the engine already. 
Imagine what you'd need to do to turd polish a ford twin cam motor or something to make that sort of power.
 

Quote

1. oil temp makes a big difference to power. the difference between 70-95deg can be a few kw. So thankful I've got the HEL thermostat to go on the oil system. 

Makes more power because the oil is thinner when its hot...
But you're running quite thick oil right? 
I know your oil guy says its a good idea to have that thick stuff in there. 
But my (speculation) thoughts are that firstly the thinner oil is easier to push through the whole system.
But also a thinner oil de-aerates quicker and also returns to sump quicker. 
also a thinner oil flows a higher volume of oil before reaching the pressure at which the presssure relief valve starts working to bypass some of it.

Loss of oil pressure can either be because you cant supply enough to meet demand.
Or that oil quality at the pickup diminishes (aeration) so you cant help but lose pressure if you are pushing some small amount of air around with the oil. 
I've got absolutely zero way to quantify that though. Just an unverified thought. But if thinner oil loses more air bubbles on the way back to sump, can only be a good thing.
Even if the pressure is slightly less, its better if its closer to 100% oil 

 

 

[Rhyscar]

Yeah that’s a good thought train. And will be worth investigating in the future especially if there’s easy power on the table. But there’s also a lot to the whole oil subject.  

1. The oil sump capacity is abysmal from factory 3.6L or something, so once all the oil is spread around the engine, operating the lift etc there’s probably less than half of it left in the sump. I plan to move to the moroso sump (6-7L capacity) when I find some spare change that will help with surging and air having time to escape the oil. 

2. For now, I plan to rely on the link oil cuts being setup on tight tolerances and logging most of the driving I do to check for discrepancies in oil pressure. From the few massive oil loss failures I’ve already seen, I’m confident they should prevent any major damage should something happen.

 

3. There is some chat from 2zz guys about oil not draining from the head quick enough… I’m unsure if this is myth or not, on track g forces may have an impact here.

 

4. Yeah my oil guy Greg from GT oils races a LOT and recommended sticking with the 5w50 due to its ability to withstand the higher temps on track.

 

5. How high temps get is yet to be seen, especially once the oil cooler is back on.  So once get some on-track data I can make some more informed tweaks to the oil weight. 
 

So what I’ve learnt about 2zz people is that they’re all a little funny about issues they have or things they like (probably myself included here lol).
 

Basically, due to lack of aftermarket support and professional teams that race/develop these engines then share the info, there’s a lot of noise, hearsay etc out there. Some might be half correct or not, but I don’t see that the oiling system issues are well understood.
 

So I’m keen to attack it one step at a time to make sure I understand why solution X or Y works. 

[Roman]

Oh yep, makes sense! 5w50 isnt so bad, I thought you were running 20w60 or something. Haha (my bad) 

Sounds like you've got a good plan. 

What's next on the to-do list? 

Remake trumpets? 

[Rhyscar]

Not quite, but it is still noticably thicker than a 5w30.. But very common in a lot of race applications (it's actually a 4 stroke motorbike oil made for 15000rpm bikes or something silly)

 

Rough plan of attack over next few months

1. Get airbox sorted and reassemble everything from powdercoating ready for photos. Mount bumper and some finishing details. Re-do cooler lines with thermostat. Clutch stopper!

2. Sort out scrutineering stuff - finish fire extinguisher, rollcage padding, rear tow hook etc

3. Re-do Trumpets - there may be some R&D to make them fit

4. Get cert process underway. Figure out gearbox oil leak - I'm afraid it's coming from input shaft seal - which means a complete box tear-down to replace a $20 part... 

5. Try a casual track day and see how it goes

6. Drag day fingers crossed

7. Oiling R&D/sump upgrade

 

[kpr]

Green is the closest to stock one ive tuned.   in original car,  stock headers,  aftermarket exhaust 2.5'?   cold air intake.   link ecu and tune. otherwise stock 

 

[Roman]

Gaining that extra bit of rpm and power up top can mean a fairly decent difference to average power across a gear shift. 
Especially in lower gears where the rpm drop is big.

Like this would be deceptively quicker than (checks notes) the zero other AE101s with a 2ZZ that I've ever seen

[kpr]

yeah something is working up there,  and decent bit in the middle too

since ae101 come with the worst 4age created, the silvertop 20v, big difference.  

[Roman]

Oh man, really puts a silvertop into perspective haha.

Although 4GR is probably the worst of the bunch for power per litre at the moment. 

4GR - 87 hp per litre at wheels

20v - 75hp per litre at wheels

2ZZ - 101hp per litre at wheels

Okay maybe not as bad as a bog standard silvertop 20v but 4GR is worst of the bunch considering extent of mods.

2ZZ is putting in some work compared to the other two.
Hopefully I can still turd polish mine a bit closer to where the 2ZZ currently sits.

I guess all of the above can keep making incremental improvements if youre willing to suffer through the good and bad of testing things out.

[xsspeed]

is it plateauing at >8500 or still has more to give? graph kinda looks like its still going up?

[Rhyscar]

@kpr great comparison. ST def the most poos option for ae101. And pretty much 5e reason I went away from 20vs cause making near on 180hp is a lot of work with 20 of the valves. 
 

It’s so funny that after all the effort I’ve gone to, I’m only slightly better off than the rubbish factory headers and single plenum. Being able to tune the itb lengths explain filling the holes down low, and a few more rpms help, but otherwise they are identical curves. Which shows there’s something else restricting the potential, or else you’d see more variability with all the different setups. 

Not upset about this, as it’s a great result to get it all running smoothly, but just interesting to reflect on if all the effort is/was worth it for my setup - objectively, probably not, but intangible joy the doorts and lift brings is something else. 
 

Ready to give up on 4ages and figure out 250hp 2zz yet Kris..? It even has 16 valves to make you feel at home 

[Rhyscar]

1 hour ago, xsspeed said:

is it plateauing at >8500 or still has more to give? graph kinda looks like its still going up?

Would have kept going for a bit longer, but it the rate of gain and loss of torque was starting to become diminishing returns. At that point, you’re better off hooking another gear and ride the power created from 6-7000 or so 

[xsspeed]

/i just wanna hear it above 9 lol

[Rhyscar]

3 hours ago, Roman said:

Like this would be deceptively quicker than (checks notes) the zero other AE101s with a 2ZZ that I've ever seen

There are a few around 1-2 in NZ. But yeah not racecars though. Coming in at under 1000kg will probably be the biggest difference to a celica, being 15% or so lighter. 

[kpr]

59 minutes ago, Rhyscar said:

@kpr  
 

 

Ready to give up on 4ages and figure out 250hp 2zz yet Kris..? It even has 16 valves to make you feel at home 

 not yet 

 

 

 

[kpr]

2 hours ago, xsspeed said:

is it plateauing at >8500 or still has more to give? graph kinda looks like its still going up?

 

with the longer trumpets its pretty flat up there (red).  probably could still rev it a bit more though.    shorter trumpets looks like it wants to keep going.  but its just that its making less at 7500. very likely will both fall over   within the next 500rpm.        Maybe find a touch more in the trumpet length, but its pretty close. probably within  10-20mm of where it needs to be 

 

[Rhyscar]

Just had a random thought. One thing not considered in this lack of variability between results is I'm running a much larger rolling diameter of tyre 215 45 17 tyre (625mm dia), where most celicas etc prob running 205 55 15 (605mm dia), which is likely not apples for apples for all the different car setups.