Trd intake manifold for beams 3sge with quads

[spanners]

Does anyone know where I can get one? or something similar? Spencer?

I have blacktop 20v quads, wanted to find an off the shelf mani but TRD list it as discontinued.

Otherwise I will just get one made up. I noticed the TRD one is tiny, and the stacks they sell with it are tiny too. I want to use my 70mm stacks, does anyone have any idea how big/small my manifold needs to be? Im not going for all out 8000rpm power, I want enough down low to make it driveable still. I guess the TRD ones are so short cos they are going for top end power at 9000+ rpm

Cheers

[thegreatestben]

i think roman would be a good man to talk to. I think he made a copy of a trd one in fibre glass

[Spencer]

Guy in aus Glenn made a bunch of cast copies of the TRD manifold, I don't think they wew that great and he's sold them all I think. The 20v throttles are much smaller than the port in the head so you at least want to have blacktop ones. Its pretty easy to get something made. CAD up the two flanges, get them laser cut in thick alloy, take the two bits to an engineer and say something like 'join these up please, and put a rad taper and angle on them'. You will probably pay not much more than the TRD one and have a better product in the end.

I sold some stuff to Glenn recently so I'll dig up his email

[spanners]

yeah I dont mind getting one made up, I just wondered if the TRD ones were readily available.

And also regarding port sizes, I measure, and I am sure that the blacktop quads I have have a 48mm throttle, and the beams head has a 47mm port?

I dont know if you are familiar with the beams head but from what I can see (I havent taken it off or had a really close look so dont flame the shit out of me) the inlet side has a small manifold/adaptor thingee that is shaped like a wedge and points upwards. This bolts to the head, then the intake runners flange bolts to that. I wondered whether I remove this or if I bolt my new manifold to the wedge. Fuck my explanations suck.

Does anyone have any suggestions at all regarding the length of the manifold I have to make? if the TRD one is so small, I can only assume that mine should be small as well. I might point mine upwards for maximum quads poking out a makita hole the bonnet effect (aka engine bay too small to not do this maybe)

Fuck I am so lost. I dont want to find out that I have made it the wrong length

[xsspeed]

Spence will likely post it but there was a bit of a write by Glen on what sizes are best for the beams more for the throttle. COmparing TRD vs BT vs some that he made (IIRC)

Edit: I think he posted it in the ITB's tech thread?

[Spencer]

Yea I've pulled a few apart and I know what you mean about the adapter on the head, there is also a thermal isolation gasket thingy. Both of these are a fair restriction and I possibly wouldn't run them just make up my own teflon thermal gasket and then make my intake from there. You want to match the steep angle that the ports have and try include a slight taper in a ideal manifold.

As for the BT throttles they are definitely not 48mm at the outlet side. If you CAD them up and CAD the port of the beams you will find the blacktop has less surface area than the port. This is less than Ideal, you want it to be the other way around. Don't get me wrong though the BT or ST throttles will get you started, but it is proven that bigger throttles will net some over all power gains. At least make your manifold so you can take some meat out and adapt it to something else in the future maybe

Also don't worry about the length, this is easy to change with different trumpets, just build a manifold that works and play with trumpets on the dyno. There optimum length will depend on your cam, its timing and what rev range you want them to be effective

[mikuni]

Yeah when spence said the 20v throttles are too small, he meant silvertop 20v throttles. The blacktop ones are big enough, as you have found out, but the TRD ones are 50mm as far as I'm aware, which does offer a slight gain right through the revs over the 48mm blacktop. From the ITB thread, the biggest problem with the blacktop throttles is their kidney shape exit, which will create a pressure drop just after the throttle so the question here is whether you fill that in or run with them as is, which is what I'm wondering at the moment.

As far as length goes, it can get quite specific and its relating to pressure waves/helmholtz theory, google that shiz to find more specifics on it. There are a number of calculators out there that will work out what will work best to give you a powercruve that suits what you want, the Honda guys get right into it and most factory engines also work on these principles to produce torque down low (long curvey runners) or power up high (short straight runners).

As I say, you could spend days working out what will work best, modeling something, then making it, but I absolutely wouldn't bother. Think about how the BEAMS responds in an Altezza, sure it slugish down low and you need to rev it, but an Altezza weighs what, 1350kg? Take 450 odd kg's off that and you are getting down towards where you will be in the starlet. That thing will just destroy everything, right off idle. Thats speaking from experience too - I have a Vectra twincam 2 litre engine in my 900kg Chevette, which is essentially standard aside from quad throttles and a link (+ exhaust) and it has so much pull down low its not funny. Plus if anything, the BEAMS will have more low-mid range with its VVTi if you manage to keep that running, so will make far more torque than my engine.

So the long and short of it in my opinion, is that it is more important to get something on there that works well, that fits and that isn't going to introduce any other issues - cutting holes in things or relocating things that shouldn't need to be relocated. For the slight gains you will get over making the perfect manifold, I don't think it is worth it. Theres also a chance that the TRD one is only that short so it can fit in the engine bay of an Altezza also, which is quite tight I would imagine. Possibly even FWD application in Celicas and MR2's, if the redtops are the same intake flange.

ps I'll probably be modeling the blacktop throttle flange soon if you can wait for me to get my a into g

edit: beaten above, was typing for ages at work in between other tasks

But here you go, this is a blacktop, rough measuring by me but good for approximates.

[Spencer]

Hey brad I can model that for you in no time if you want? I'll just scan it and adjust. I am literally on autocad all day at the moment.

[bubblegoose]

get black tops machined out and bigger valves put in?

its a common upgrade to single throttles so cant be much different for 4 small ones

[Spencer]

Yea a guy does the butterflies if you want to machine them out. Its just getting the shafts to seal is the fun part

[spanners]

Not being lazy but I am pushed for time, I really dont want to get involved with modifying the throttles at all. For the sake of 5hp, I think I can live with them as is. I will be using a Link storm and keeping VVTi going, and not modifying anything inside the motor. So the position of the throttle butterfly itself in relation to the port isnt as important as the overall measurement from the head to the top of the trumpet? Cos if thats the case, i will keep TB very close to head and maybe my 70mm trumpets will be long enough. Apparently most people use 50mm ones, so I figured going longer would be a way to be on the safe side for keeping low end torque available.

How do I get a pipe to change shape to suit both the oval TB and the round head port? Wil the whole manifold just be one big cast block of alloy with some holes bored in it or will I use 2x flanges and a suitable pipe between them, shaped at each end?

What have I gotten myself into, I suck at shit like this. My engineer is really good with his tools but not familiar with the specifics of the manifold design requirements etc so he is looking to me for information.

Thermal gasket - is this one to keep the heat from the head from transferring to the inlet manifold? I didnt even know it was in there.

Space wise I think altezza would have heaps of room using the TRD ones but starlet has narrower gap between struts and my layout means that the quads will be very close to the firewall.

So to get the ball rolling, the general consensus is to have the quads sitting close to the head on any manifold that fits, and then tune from there?

Someone should just send me their manifold and some money

[mikuni]

Manifold will consist of 2 flanges, joined by some magically shaped pipes that you're engineer will be able to make. They'll weld these pipes to the flanges and then its usually best to have the faces of the manifold planed so that its perfectly flat for sealing. any engine shop will do this for cheap.

Other things to keep in mind for the intake manifold are the injector bosses if the injectors need to go into the manifold - some engines (namely Toyota) have them in the head so you don't have to worry about them, while some others have a small section of the intake manifold with the injectors in, which you can use also. You may also want to weld a small pipe onto each intake runner for the vacuum collector - brake booster/fuel pressure regularor/map sensor etc.

Finally, as spence mentioned above, I might be able to help out with getting the throttle side flange made up for you, then we'll get it laser cut by 10-5 in 10mm alloy. If you want us to provide you with one it will probably be something like $50ea and then you just need to sort the head side of the manifold.

[spanners]

And for the head side I see that there are CNC machined flanges that someone is already selling on TM. Although I dont know if they attach to the head, or to the adaptor. But if I buy this, then buy the TB one off you, then get them joined up, I am good to go. Mikuni, I might take you up on this one.

I kinda thought that there were lots of the manifolds available off the shelf, I am a bit gutted that there isnt. Someone should make them and sell them! I suppose its not thaaaat common a conversion so would be hard to make money on in NZ.

And yes injectors in the head ftw

[Spencer]

Problem with the beams is that it was only intended for the Japanese market. So not many other countries have the abundance of these that we have. Plus they are getting on abit now and most Japanese tuning houses have moved on to other products thus like the TRD products most are now discontinued. I don't think theres much of a market for beams parts either NA tuning is costly so most people don't bother. Glenn had his replica manifolds very sharply priced and it took him ages to sell the last of them.

[spanners]

Looking at this again.. Mikuni did you mean that you would get 4 individual flanges made up (one for each TB)?

Cos I was hoping to leave the TB spacing exactly as it is, and making one big flange to hold them all together rather than 4 individual flanges. saves modifying throttle linkages and idle control diapgram thingee (wtf is that for? Does it sense a vac behind the TB butterfly and open the butterfly a tiny bit to allow idle? Surely you just wind the idle screw up 2mm and leave the butterflys partially open all the time? Or does that suck for deceleration)

[westy]

Does the engine use a separate idle circuit?

Toymota noob

[mikuni]

Looking at this again.. Mikuni did you mean that you would get 4 individual flanges made up (one for each TB)?

Cos I was hoping to leave the TB spacing exactly as it is, and making one big flange to hold them all together rather than 4 individual flanges. saves modifying throttle linkages and idle control diapgram thingee (wtf is that for? Does it sense a vac behind the TB butterfly and open the butterfly a tiny bit to allow idle? Surely you just wind the idle screw up 2mm and leave the butterflys partially open all the time? Or does that suck for deceleration)

My engine is 86x86 and it has port spacing similar to the 3S, which isn't too bad for the thottles as they are original spaced. They are a tiny bit close but again, for the mucking around in seperating them and still having them actuate perfectly just isn't worth it for probably zero gain in having straight intake runners.

So I will be retaining the 20v throttle spacing and just making up a single piece flange for all 4 throttles.

I was looking at that vacuum solinoid the other night. It looks like it might do just that, just give some basic idle control when it see's a big vaccum. I pulled it off last time I did this (if it was even there to begin with?) but this time I might just join vacuum up to it and see what happens. My Chevette motor stalls sometimes even when warm when the revs fall from high to idle, so any help here would be sweet. You can just crack the throttles open slightly, which so many people do, but I don't like the feel of motors like this, because the throttle is still slightly on even on decell, so they don't seem to engine brake or drop revs as quickly as engines where the throttle closes fully and some form of idle control catches the revs at low engine speed. Thats just my opinion, but if Toyota have made allowance for something like that and it doesn't get in the way or anything, why not use it?

[spanners]

My engine is 86x86

Sorry but what do you mean? Port size? And is this stilll the vectra engine?

[BobbyBreeze]

bore and stroke son.

Think you are worrying about it too much. Shouldn't be too hard to work out.

Either that or slap some carbs on it! Couldnt use VVTi though.

[mikuni]

My engine is 86x86

Sorry but what do you mean? Port size? And is this stilll the vectra engine?

Oh yeah, slightly irrelevant but just saying that bore and stroke on my motor is 86mm x 86mm which I think is the same as the BEAMS from memory, a lot of 2 litres are. Just getting at the fact that its similar in size to your engine, so spacing should be similar. Obviously cyclinder and port spacing can be different, but if my engine had a vastly different bore or stroke to yours then it would be less similar in size/port spacing.

Yeap, still talking a Vectra engine, but this isn't the engine thats in the Chevette, its an older, but still quite similar motor.

I'll talk to spence about options for him modeling a flange up for you. Easiest option is probably for you to buy an intake manifold gasket and post it to him (or see if he can pick it up from Toyota/Phil) to model from. Other option is getting something off the net, but no gauranty's here or he may even have something he can use to scan.