HighLUX Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishtailfred Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Bump from dead re reset issues. Cam was probing me in the background (I like it, spooning too) and I had this to say: (14:38:11) Fred: what are the two relays going to 7 things through 7 fuses? :-/(14:38:32) Fred: should have one relay from key to turn on power to ecu, one relay from ecu to turn on fuel pump(14:38:48) Fred: two relays from key to turn on fuel injectors and coils(14:39:04) Fred: in ms land those relays should get their ground from the fuel pump relay output and 12 from the key(14:39:10) Fred: or shit burns(14:39:31) Fred: the ones for the coils/injectors should be in the engine bay close to the coils/injectors/battery(14:39:50) Fred: the ECU one should be between battery or starter and ECU directly(14:40:04) Fred: The fuel pump one should be between fuel pump and battery directly(14:40:27) Fred: fuses should be at/near/on the battery end of wires so as to protect the wires (which is their job) Resistive ignition leads and plugs are essential. If you are getting genuine resets (not sync losses) then you're getting power supply disruption in the box or EMI through the box. Is the unit metal or plastic? If plastic, is it conductive? If not, don't rule out EMI. Try adding caps to the power supply wires and see if that cures it. Where is the box physically located? Hopefully inside the cabin away from the ignition components. How are you driving your coils? If you're using the uS box to switch them directly, I suggest giving that a HUGE miss as the grounding in M$ boxes is all kinds of fucked up. IE, DO NOT USE megasquirt internal ignition drivers under any circumstances. I'm ignoring my own words in this thread out of fond memories of the party at your place 4 odd years ago! Fred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookie Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Fred, could just using non resistor plugs cause the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testament Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 Bump from dead re reset issues. Cam was probing me in the background (I like it, spooning too) and I had this to say: (14:38:11) Fred: what are the two relays going to 7 things through 7 fuses? :-/ (14:38:32) Fred: should have one relay from key to turn on power to ecu, one relay from ecu to turn on fuel pump (14:38:48) Fred: two relays from key to turn on fuel injectors and coil one relay powers fuel pumps and wide band the other one is powering the rest. so i am thinking fit another relay for just the ECU, then we would have 1 relay doing pumps+wideband, one doing injectors and ignition and one for the ecu (14:39:04) Fred: in ms land those relays should get their ground from the fuel pump relay output and 12 from the key (14:39:10) Fred: or shit burns I think that is how its wired (I dont have our wiring diagram here at work and my freind did most of it so I dont remember every detail) (14:39:31) Fred: the ones for the coils/injectors should be in the engine bay close to the coils/injectors/batteryyep pretty much (14:39:50) Fred: the ECU one should be between battery or starter and ECU directlyyep ok (14:40:04) Fred: The fuel pump one should be between fuel pump and battery directlyyep pretty much (14:40:27) Fred: fuses should be at/near/on the battery end of wires so as to protect the wires (which is their job)yep everything is taking power from the starter motor power terminal close by at the moment Resistive ignition leads and plugs are essential. If you are getting genuine resets (not sync losses) then you're getting power supply disruption in the box or EMI through the box. Is the unit metal or plastic? If plastic, is it conductive? If not, don't rule out EMI. Try adding caps to the power supply wires and see if that cures it. Where is the box physically located? Hopefully inside the cabin away from the ignition components. How are you driving your coils? If you're using the uS box to switch them directly, I suggest giving that a HUGE miss as the grounding in M$ boxes is all kinds of fucked up. IE, DO NOT USE megasquirt internal ignition drivers under any circumstances. I'm ignoring my own words in this thread out of fond memories of the party at your place 4 odd years ago! Fred. It's a microsquirt V3 (yes you are probably rolling your eyes for some reason I am sure) so plasic box, mounted (well sitting atm) in the plastic glove box shelf in the cabin. ignition is 4x LS truck coils in wasted spark so all ignition drivers are in the engine bay. Not 100% sure the leads are resistive ones, they are just some generic bosch ones I got at supercheap will need to find a number on them and do some research. but yeah as dave says currently has BP6ES plugs in, I'm getting some BPR7ES today so will try those and separating that ecu power directly from the battery. hopefully we can scope the power supply also if we can get the software to work on my laptop or my old garage desktop pc. and chur, that was a good nats some time ago! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 It was when Leon introduced me to running on phone books. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cute wee gem Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 If you do a quick datalog and let the ecu reset by itself, then you can look back through to find if it's a sync loss or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cute wee gem Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Also gives you the reason you're getting sync loss. Copy and pasted the list if you haven't looked it up 0 = no problem1 = init error2 = missing tooth at wrong time3 = too many teeth before missing tooth (last)4 = too few teeth before missing tooth (last)5 = 1st tooth failed test6 = nonsense input (last)7 = nonsense input (mid)8 = too many teeth before missing tooth (mid)9 = too few teeth before missing tooth (mid)10 = too many teeth before end of sequence11 = too few teeth before second trigger12 = too many sync errors13 = dizzy wrong edge14 = trigger return vane size15 = EDIS16 = EDISspecial wheels20 = subaru 6/7 tooth 6 error21 = subaru 6/7 tooth 3 error22 = Rover #2 missing tooth error23 = 420A long tooth not found24 = 420A cam phase wrong25 = 420A26 = 420A27 = 420A28 = 36-1+129 = 36-2-2-230 = 36-2-2-231 = Miata 99-00 - 2 cams not seen32 = Miata 99-00 - 0 cams seen33 = 6G72 - tooth 2 error34 = 6G72 - tooth 4 error35 = Weber-Marelli36 = CAS 4/137 = 4G6338 = 4G6339 = 4G6340 = Twin trigger41 = Twin trigger42 = Chrysler 2.2/2.543 = Renix44 = Suzuki Swift45 = Vitara46 = Vitara47 = Daihatsu 348 = Daihatsu 449 = VTR100050 = Rover #351 = GM 7X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cute wee gem Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Also this may be no help but is the ecu actually resetting or is it just stalling? I had a problem with my tps spiking massively but only on random occasions which caused the accel enrichment to go off and stall it while idling or buck while driving Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testament Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 nah its not sync loss its momentary ecu reset there is a vertical line on megalogviewer that indicates this and nothing else goes funny beforehand everything is affected at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishtailfred Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Good that you're using LS coils like that. Win. Just make sure the round trip from battery to fuse to relay to coil to ground is as short and direct as possible and run some sort of automotive cap at the power feed to those coils. The fact that your ECU is in the glove box and thus well isolated from ignition stuff indicates that it's likely a power spike causing it. M$ boards that I know of (and all current FreeEMS boards too) have pretty rudimentary power supplies on them. If you're logging from the ECU when it does the reset, you can manually verify by looking at the clock(s) in the stream and see if they go to zero at the instant it's supposedly resetting. That's likely how MLV draws the line anyway, but worth checking. I don't trust Phil Tobin at all, let alone his software. @ cute wee, those sync reasons are not very helpful in the generic cases, and totally unhelpful in the specific cases. Nothing new there Generic bosch super cheap leads are what my truck runs (and ran on ms2 too), so yes, they're resistive, no need to research if you were unsure, crack out a meter. Most are. Copper cored leads are rare and uncommon to find period. But worth asking The relay fix should come first as you're pumping coil kick backs into your ECU power supply the way it is now. Not good. If that doesn't solve it, hopefully the plug swap will. Fix the relay situation first, though. I'd recommend an extra one, as the coils draw a lot of current at peak, and this will cause some sag of voltage to the injectors depending on ignition timing and make your injector behaviour slightly less consistent. You can get away with it as you described, though. On the other hand it's VERY nice to be able to pull a relay out of a socket and JUST kill one set of things. EG disable fueling while initially tuning your ignition timing offset or whatever the J&K clowns call it. In all cases, the key is to separate wiring feeds (+ and -) for the entire distance or as close as is reasonably possible. Taking this to the extreme, imagine running a 100m cable from a battery to an ignition coil. The cable has VERY LITTLE control over what happens AT the coil due to its length and resulting resistance. If you did that, and attached the ECU way out there at the end, it'd never work. On the other hand, if you ran two sets of wire 100m to a coil and to an ECU, it could, if setup right, work just fine. 1m is close enough to 100m to care, FYI. Fred. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishtailfred Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 PS, once you have it working you should drag it up here to me and we'll swap it to something with more freedom and a lower price and you can sell that and buy pizza, beer, coke and hookers with the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testament Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 Silly ecu. Resistor spark plugs didn’t seem to make much difference. And yeah as you say the leads are resistor type bosch B30si. We already had a temp power to ecu direct from the battery actually. I Put a jumper lead from engine block to battery negative. none of that seemed to make much odds its still doing it sporadically anywhere from 10sec apart to 5min apart. Tried to power ecu from battery jumper pack but it didn’t seem to work (hopefully I didn’t blow it up) from just the +ve lead of the jumper pack. I don’t know why. Can swap the power for everything to battery +ve instead of the starter motor lug maybe? and will try to scope the power supply/battery +ve terminal tonight I guess. did not have time last night. The only other thing I didn’t test was if it stops doing it when the laptop is unplugged. I read somewhere online about someone whose ecu only did it when the laptop was plugged in? My freind who did most of the install has been wanting to put a condenser from a points ignition somewhere on the coils not sure if he wanted to just put one somewhere or one for each coil - is that going to be the same as the automotive cap you speak of? just on the main power from the fuse to the 4 coils? Anyway will try the scope and that capacitor/condenser and put everything else back together so I can drive it now. I’m pretty sure denmah would just ignore the ecu resets anyway haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishtailfred Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I wouldn't use an old condensor only because they're old and likely not very good. I would use one from any later/90s EFI setup which are sealed and not even electro based AFAICT. Lemme find a picture... http://images.wrenchead.com/smartpages/partinfo_resize/DUS/E233A.jpg something like that. One on each coil will help keep the noise off of the 12V rail AND out of the wiring. If your laptop is not powered from an inverter it shouldn't cause any drama. Again, though, that depends how the M$ clowns designed the thing. FreeEMS designs have an isolator between USB and CPU such that you can run a crappy inverter and still not have issues. Re starter lug vs battery, that depends on the gruntiness of the cable between the two. If it's short and fat then it shouldn't matter much/at all. If it's long and thin then it will definitely matter. All of your fuses should be very close to your supply anyway. Having them miles away is not very useful in terms of protecting the vehicle from the dangers of electrical fires. For comparison I think stock my ute had something like 16mm^2 from battery to body to block, total of about 2 feet. It now has 50mm^2, but runs from behind the diff all teh way to to the starter, both + and - have a big fat wire. I guess it's about 3 or 4 meters each side. I wanted excellent starting... which means no V drop. The power for my ECU comes from the battery via an 8ga cable, and the power for everything else comes from the front hanging off of that big wire. The alternator feeds directly back via a dedicated 8ga cable AND has its vref wire directly to the battery too, so it's setting the end result voltage, no the voltage at some wire far from the battery. I've gotten off topic now, though. Sorry. Weird about your alternate power not helping. Fred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testament Posted February 27, 2014 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 my freind scoped it and the power supply didnt seem too bad, mostly around 12.5v and occasionally up to 14.5v and made a couple of other small changes and it seems like it doesnt do it now when the laptop is unplugged, have borrowed another laptop with a serial port now to see if that helps. its not bad enough to hold thigns up now anyways. also fixed things down enough to go for a test drive, got about 100m up the road and it was too lean so turned around and went home, plugged the laptop back in (I had left it on the charger as the battery was low) added a bunch more fuel and turned up accel enrichment to see what would happen, pig rich and swinging all over the place haha. got a bit late to try any more but put everything to charge and will go over the maps a bit more methodically when I get home and have a mate come around so someone can drive the car and someone can drive the laptop and cross fingers we can get in driveableish condition tonight/tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I know it's lame but when I have been alone the auto-tune gets ya 90% of the way there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testament Posted February 27, 2014 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 yeah thats alot of the plan. just get it ok enough that it can putt along to engage autotune then drive around and around and around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 While it is better with a buddy and doing it yourself The auto tune is wayyy lusher these days, just set it up properly and drive. Only need a buddy for that last 10% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I helped chuck a tune on my mates 4age turbo thing and somehow he lost the tune. Anyway he went for a cruise with auto tune from scratch and it was virtually the same as what we did the first time. Obviously just be conservative on the ignition timing with that charger on there. Chuck heaps at it on cruise though and lean it out so you don't use big block gas on the way to Nelson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testament Posted February 27, 2014 Author Share Posted February 27, 2014 yeah am thinking I will get a car 240v charger thing so we can charge the laptop from time to time and trim it up as we cruise down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishtailfred Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Spencer, autotune is a myth! You're talking about auto-calibration. Which doesn't tune your engine at all. Tuning is the process of finding the optimum timing and lambda for all load sites. Don't swallow Phil Tobin's marketing horseshit. Cam tells me you're using 3.770 B&G firmware. Fuck that. There's bad, then there's worse. I would highly recommend you switch to ms2extra before you put any effort into tuning it. I'd also highly recommend you use the optional "incorporate AFR" bollocks, which is not default, but makes M$ less shit and more like reality. Unsure what the latest ms2extra shit is, however once you get on a version, unless you have issues or a good reason to change, I'd highly recommend sticking with a specific version. These clowns are famous for breaking shit between versions (regressions). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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